Wolfram von Richthofen

[alex_revell]

At the moment I'm reading Antony's impressive book on the Spanish civil war, The Battle for Spain. I came across this comment on Wolfram von Richthofen. 'Richthofen, a cousin of the famous Red baron air ace, was a hard, arrogant man, disliked by German and Spanish officers alike. He was to become infamous as the destroyer of many towns and cities: Durango and Guernica in Spain, then Rotterdam, Belgrade, Canea and Heraklion in Crete, followed by many cities in the Soviet Union, most notably of all, Stalingrad, where 40,000 civilians were killed.'
It made me wonder what Manfred, if he had lived, would have thought of his cousin.

[crankcase]

this is a derivative question to "what would manfred have become under the nazis?", one of those eternally speculative, counter-factual questions.

my own view is that manfred would have made an impressive career in the luftwaffe as a result of personal drive and ability, without stooping to the petty squabbles of hitler's lackeys. he would probably have been bothered by the outrages of the nazis, but would have kept his views private and stuck to his personal principles an erwin rommel.

i am sure he would have taken wolfram's arrogance in stride, possibly been amused by it (there is a sub-culture of senior officer caste arrogance, isn't there?) and as a relative he would not have hesitated to tease him for it! i don't think he would have passed judgment on the bombing campaigns per se as there is little time to think about proportionality and other "niceties" in the middle of what amounted to a crusade against bolshevism.
marc

[FliegerJG1]

When we speculate on things such as this, we must keep in mind the man's physical health. He experienced pounding headaches from his wounding in July 1917 so that certainly would have played a role in his postwar activity. He also saw early on that Germany wasn't going to win the war and did not care for the political scene so given this, it's hard to imagine him participating in another war. Manfred was a very fair and evenhanded leader so Wolfram's attitude would not have pleased him.

FliegerJG1

[Biber]

Originally Posted by FliegerJG1

...did not care for the political scene so given this, it's hard to imagine him participating in another war. ...

Certainly with regard to joining the party activities in the run up to power in the early thirties. But as far as aviation is concerned, he probably would have joined the war effort in my opinion. (Assuming, of course he didn't succumb to an aviation accident in the 20s or 30s.) Perhaps more to the point, would he have been "allowed" not to?

B

[frontflieger]

With a surviving Manfred there wouldn't have been a nazi-regime .

and: Wolfram was a rather distant cousin!

Thorsten

[Epee]

Wolfram flew with Manfred and Lothar in April 1918. He was in fact involved in MvR's last flight when, after being ordered to stay clear of any combat, Wolfram was clumsily atacked by May who was under the same orders. MvR came to the defense of his cousin and the rest is history.

Wolfram was a very distant relation to Manfred and Lothar; the common ancestor having lived in the 18th century. But like many proventuals Manfred and Lothar considered anyone with the same family name kin and openly called Wolfram "cousin".

There was also a Jewish branch of the Richthofen family which may account for some Jewish-German pilots of the era claiming that Manfred treated them as equals because he carried Jewish blood. There wasn't any Jews in Manfred and Lothar's immediate family but given their treatment of Wolfram, their Mother's dislike of the Nazis and the suffering of the Jewish Richthofens during the Nazi years I think that it is quite possible that, had he survived Manfred might have gone to the wall for his principles just as he did in WW1.

In later years Erich Hartmann, the top ace of WW2, opined that the Anti-Nazis were never able to kill Hitler because their plans were too complex and all that was needed was for someone to walk in and shoot him. MvR seems like just the type, once convinced of the course of action, to quick-march through the Chancellery, whip out a Luger and pump several 9mms into Hilter's diseased little noggin. Maybe in an alternate universe....

[Biber]

Originally Posted by Epee

... their Mother's dislike of the Nazis and the suffering of the Jewish Richthofens during the Nazi years I think that it is quite possible that, had he survived Manfred might have gone to the wall for his principles just as he did in WW1.....

Probably. Still, I dare say he wouldn't have been allowed to stay out of it all. Despite Mama R's stance she was nevertheless trotted out for propaganda purposes, as certainly MvR would have had he lived. Isn't there a photo of her with HG at a MvR memorial ceremony givin a heil salute? With even a trace of jewish blood in the family he wouldn't have dared to buck the system. Surely to do so would have ultimately proved fatal.

B

[Michael_Dailey]

Interesting data on Wolfram von Richthofen's arrogance and being disliked universally. The opinion in the Antony book is not a universal one, as I seem to recall that Erich von Manstein in his memoirs considered WvR an excellent commander and his (Manstein's) right arm in South Russia in 1942/43. I suppose that doesn't entirely preclude him being arrogant, and his performance in Russia along with a reference from Manstein hardly excuse him for events like the bombing of Guernica. I remember reading other sources that were generally positive about him as a commander as well although I am not certain where I have read them, most likely from Moelders and Galland, as they served in Spain as well.

MDD

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by frontflieger

With a surviving Manfred there wouldn't have been a nazi-regime .

Thorsten

Why's that? I was just thinking about this same thing the other day, I have the feeling he would have towed the line to some extent. To what extent is anyones guess. Maybe Goering wouldn't have risen to such power but I think the Nazi party still would have come to power. MvR, to a point most certainly would have been used for propaganda as they did with his legacy.

Would he have taken Udets route?...hmmm yet something else to ponder.

[Romani]

Originally Posted by alex_revell

At the moment I'm reading Antony's impressive book on the Spanish civil war, The Battle for Spain. I came across this comment on Wolfram von Richthofen. 'Richthofen, a cousin of the famous Red baron air ace, was a hard, arrogant man, disliked by German and Spanish officers alike. He was to become infamous as the destroyer of many towns and cities: Durango and Guernica in Spain, then Rotterdam, Belgrade, Canea and Heraklion in Crete, followed by many cities in the Soviet Union, most notably of all, Stalingrad, where 40,000 civilians were killed.'
It made me wonder what Manfred, if he had lived, would have thought of his cousin.

Esteemed Mister Revell,

Being Spanish myself and owning and having read a copious bibliography on the Spanish Civil War, I can tell you Anthony Beevor's book is far from impressive, certainly worse than his books about Stalingrad and Berlin (wich were just okay) at best just being one more book, and strongly biased in favor of the Reds (not Republicans, they proudly called themselves Reds).

Particularly bewildering it's his sympathy towards the Anarchists wich is kinda like sympathizing with the Khmer Rouge. This is not the place to discuss Beevor's book as a whole or the Spanish Civil War, I am just telling you that reader's discretion is advised. If you want to find out the flaws of the book, read up the critical reviews in amazon.com, link provided here:

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: The Battle for Spain: The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939

About Wolfram as a military leader, he seems to have been a very competent man but a harsh taskmaster, being a successful military commander doesn't neccesarily mean winning popularity contests.

Also, as his fame as destroyer of towns and cities, you would have to examine each charge in detail. Had he stood trial for war crimes he would be acquited of a couple of the charges, excused though not justified for others, and deservedly hanged for others.

- Guernica is a myth incredibly blown out of proportion. It's interesting for history of propaganda, but only a footnote in the Spanish Civil War. It was a valid military target as a communications hub for the retreating Republican forces. The town was a natural fire hazard, and the destruction caused by the fires that raged unchecked as the town had been vacated was completely out of proportion with the modest bomb load dropped.

- Durango, in contrast, seems to have been deliberately bombed as target practice, though the small size of the village and the modest body count of a few hundred people make it doubtful that it was an essay at terror bombing. A criminal act, yes, but sadly, a footnote in the sea of blood that was the Spanish Civil War, and a drop in the ocean that was to be the Second World War.

- Rotterdam. I thought it was common knowledge that this has been stablished a tragic mistake on the part of the Luftwaffe, and that the destruction, again by fire, was unintentional. I am not making any apologies for Nazi war crimes at all, just pointing out that, in the interest of historical truth, on occasion they are attributed crimes that they didn't commit.l

- Canea and Heraklion. If my memory serves me right about the Creta operation, these were valid military targets, the civilian casualties inflicted being "collateral damage"

- Belgrade and Stalingrad and no doubt many others. Utter atrocity, with no mitigating circumstances.

Summing it up, he was a capable Nazi general with all that it entailed, in a high post of responsibility, and thus a high degree of responsibility for crimes commited by the Nazi regime in his sphere of action.

About what MvR would have thought, who knows? Does it that matter? There were plenty other disturbing evil things going on in the III Reich at the time to reflect much on what the Luftwaffe bombers were doing to cities. I don't think the average German gave much thought in 1940 at what the Blitz really meant for British civilians. Remember this was not the age of television, and it was a totalitarian regime that censored the news. I don't think the Nazis boasted publicly about the bombing of Warsaw or Belgrade.

The officers that tried to kill Hitler got really started when they witnessed the attrocities commited during the invasion of Russia, namely the massacres of Jews.

Originally Posted by Epee

In later years Erich Hartmann, the top ace of WW2, opined that the Anti-Nazis were never able to kill Hitler because their plans were too complex and all that was needed was for someone to walk in and shoot him.

With all due respect to Hartmann, he didn't know what he was talking about. Killing Hitler was not enough, and even just killing him, if you read a bit about the attempts to kill Hitler, it wasn't as simple as that , and anyway it was tried on two occasions, one guy was to shoot him with his pistol, and in another attempt one wanted to get near him and pull the pin on a grenade, but they never got close enough to try, and on the two other occasions where they managed to place a bomb near him, both failed due to misfortune.

Anyway, I don't think WvR career after 1918 or any of this is relevant to Great War aviation and the thread should be moved to the Off Topic section.