Ltn Joeph Jacobs and the quest for the 2nd DEVIL image

[van der Laan]

We all remember this one:

Posted not long ago in this very thread and gone round and round by myself Oele and others, but did you know there was still another. No, not from that same period of time, but of the same folks or what was left of them in the 60s. The group kept getting smaller and smaller ... time always wins.

I'm never sure if old JJ keeps getting into the center because of his position or simply his size....guess if you were in this crowd it really did not matter.

[van der Laan]

To see the sights JJ had seen in his lifetime, and not just him but many people his age constitutes maybe the single greatest advancement ever seen by a single generation. My father tells the tale of when he was flying with Branniff, at one point on a 747 trip from New York to LA during the 70s, the stewardesses ushered a 101 year old woman up to the cockpit (back when they did that kind of thing). It was her first trip in an airplane and the 747 was a mighty big step. When asked by the captain if she had ever been to LA before (while marveling at the ground from FLT LEVEL 360) she replied matter of factly: “Why yes, I first went there on a wagon train before the turn of the century and we ended up coming home to New York by ship… and that was before the Panama canal short cut ... young man”.

JJ could out pace her I’m sure.

[SCMc]

van der Laan,

Thank you for continuing to share high quality images of your collection.

I hope you can bear with me going off topic for a moment:

Dan-San or anyone else,

Is the line on the side of the Fokker D.II from a stringer or a seam? Does anyone know of structural drawings of the D.II or D.III fuselage?

Steve

[Hal Oele]

Hi folks,

working with JJ´s diary, MT find more and more shady entrys...
One of the most significant (described below) is a proof that this diary wasn´t written in the WW1 period.
The only explanation is that JJ wrote it in the late 1930s, based on earlyer
notations and his barograms. But sometimes his memory fade...

yours
Hal

Hi, van der Laan,

it's realy dangerous with a further shovel coal for more steam, some people here are nearly to explode
when they have to learn that her Jasta 7 Pilot Lt. Otto Kunst disappeared into nirvana...
(naive, as I am, I expected someone would say "thank you" for Lt.d.R. Friedrich Karl Knust).
Okay, I get duck and cover, here´s a shovel of coal...


Published by Stephen Lawson (archivist of the LaFayette foundation) from the handwritten diary of Ltn.d.R. Josef Jacobs:

"30 October 1917: Today at 9.30am a front flight in low-hanging clouds. Landed at 9.55am.
From 31 October until 5 November 1917 I was in Germany on leave type-testing!"

But during the given date there was no type-testing in Germany.
It was one year later in 1918!
We all know the photos of an amused Jacobs and his friends, proud of their Pour-le-Merite,
knowing war was over and they are still alive, and we know the party of the Pfalz brothers,
with the nude dancer Lucie Kieselhausen...

This alpha pilot Josef Jacobs should have forgotten this event and placed it in 1917 in his handwritten diary?

Manfred Thiemeyer

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by Hal Oele

". . .Hi folks, working with JJ´s diary, MT find more and more shady entrys. . . One of the most significant (described below) is a proof that this diary wasn´t written in the WW1 period. The only explanation is that JJ wrote it in the late 1930s, based on earlyer notations and his barograms. But sometimes his memory fade. . .
yours
Hal


". . . from the handwritten diary of Ltn.d.R. Josef Jacobs:

"30 October 1917: Today at 9.30am a front flight in low-hanging clouds. Landed at 9.55am.
From 31 October until 5 November 1917 I was in Germany on leave type-testing!"

But during the given date there was no type-testing in Germany.
It was one year later in 1918!
We all know the photos of an amused Jacobs and his friends, proud of their Pour-le-Merite, knowing war was over and they are still alive, and we know the party of the Pfalz brothers, with the nude dancer Lucie Kieselhausen...

This alpha pilot Josef Jacobs should have forgotten this event and placed it in 1917 in his handwritten diary?

Manfred Thiemeyer

There are no entries in the diary after late Sept. 1918. Nowhere in the diary does it say anything about him going to type testing in Oct. -Nov any year. I concure sir you are misrepresenting and creating mendacities. If Mr. Oele is in fact a second person he is guilty by association by posting this lie for MT.

[van der Laan]

An interesting turn of events: the only way one could settle it, is to post the offending passage. From where did it originate? Indeed there may really be a fake diary, but it looks like its not the one in Denver or it too would have the forged passage?

I'll assume MT really does have evidence in hand and could simply have the fake version of it which has mislead him. I say post the passage MT and lets see, maybe the handwriting as you mentioned does not even match the one in Denver?

[Joerg]

Originally Posted by StephenLawson

There are no entries in the diary after late Sept. 1918. Nowhere in the diary does it say anything about him going to type testing in Oct. -Nov any year. I concure sir you are misrepresenting and creating mendacities. If Mr. Oele is in fact a second person he is guilty by association by posting this lie for MT.

Too funny! Mr Lawson is trying to become the holder of the allover truth in the JJ case.
Let me confirm that Hal Oele and MT are not the same person. I know them both quite well. It seems to be unbelievable, but there is indeed more than one guy in Germany being able to detect faulty notes in diaries, letters and books, written by the old heroes years after their engagment.
Do you need another example? Here you are: The "original" diary of Jasta 24 exists at least three times! What version will you declare as the right one?

Joerg

[Hal Oele]

Hello Mr. Lawson,

and now for the umpteenth time...
Hal Oele and MT are two different persons!!!

To your assertion:
"If Mr. Oele is in fact a second person he is guilty by association by posting this lie for MT"

Thank you for your political correct statement, but the reality is another...
I´m not a brainless servant...
Before i post anything for MT, it will be discussed with him.
The effect: A comprehend, logic conclusion...

Hal Oele


Mr. Lawson,

in the following I'm quoting you from different issues of Cross & Cockade International, as the archivist of the LaFayette Foundation;



C&C Int 25/3/1994 pg.131
"...The basis of this study is the original diary of Josef Carl Peter Jacobs and the partial translation done by the late Harry van Dorssen and his unknown assistants. Portions of the diary that were left undone at his demise were completed by me were Sept-Oct 1917 and Aug-Sept 1918..."

C&C Int 26/3/1995 pg.163
"...The Jacobs diary was quoted as exactly as possible..."

C&C Int 29/2/1998 pg.61-62
"...During his flying career he began to attach pieces of barograph paper to the area adjacent to the corresponding day's activities... It is definitely a first hand document, not one cleaned up and packaged after the war..."






Two remarks:
1) it was you who published from the handwritten diary of JJ in Cross & Cockade International Vol.25/2/1994 that JJ was at type-testing Oct-Nov 1917, see the attachements above!

2) it's a tragedy for a researcher when he isn't open minded to date a document. The handwritten diary with the LaFayette Foundation was written after WW1!

You may have a look in Box 14, item 1...
http://www.utdallas.edu/library/coll...1pdf/Ferko.pdf

Manfred Thiemeyer

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by van der Laan

An interesting turn of events: the only way one could settle it, is to post the offending passage. From where did it originate? Indeed there may really be a fake diary, but it looks like its not the one in Denver or it too would have the forged passage?

I'll assume MT really does have evidence in hand and could simply have the fake version of it which has mislead him. I say post the passage MT and lets see, maybe the handwriting as you mentioned does not even match the one in Denver?

Michael he is misquoting my published article. Which contained quotes from the diary and later interviews with Jacobs. There was also the correspondence to Wm Puglisi and other sources that are listed in the bibliographies. The passsage he is speaking about came from Jacobs post war and originally said 1918. It is a typo that was covered in later errata and addenda sections of Cross & Cocakde Intl. When you do research it needs to be thorough. No big mystery folks. Just an eager beaver wanting to discredit Jacobs.

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by Joerg

Too funny! Mr Lawson is trying to become the holder of the allover truth in the JJ case.
Let me confirm that Hal Oele and MT are not the same person. I know them both quite well. It seems to be unbelievable, but there is indeed more than one guy in Germany being able to detect faulty notes in diaries, letters and books, written by the old heroes years after their engagment.
Do you need another example? Here you are: The "original" diary of Jasta 24 exists at least three times! What version will you declare as the right one?

Joerg

Not sure where that came from. But I do enjoy being truthful. Thanks for your confirmation but it still lack credibility. The Jacobs diary is a day to day account made during the war. But as for the Jasta 24 mention R. Duiven covered that when he was alive. It might help you to do a bit of research on that. Since it was Rick that published the "Tornuss, diary excerpts."

For other people not aware of it. . . When the Nazis came to power they tried to rewrite history and impounded most private history collections in Germany. There were several individuals that hid their collections and after the war these came out from their secrecy. It was people like Mr. Puglisi and Mr. Grosz that purchased copies of these collections.

Also a bit of further note. There has been, is and will be a strain of fellows that believe that German history can only be researched by Germans. It is highly offensive to these fellows that anyone, who is not German says, or publishes anything about German history. I hope this helps the average reader to understand. Jacobs did not believe this and spoke to anyone who was interested. By the way his small library was one the Nazis impounded. He also refused to Nazify and had to spend WWII in Norway.