Ltn Joeph Jacobs and the quest for the 2nd DEVIL image

[rammjaeger]

Dear Mr Lawson,

it is not my discussion or favorite subject and I did not read the whole thread but I think I should point out some facts to avoid misunderstandings (also of other readers):

1) Josef Jacobs did not spent the whole of WWII in Norway.
He was not removed as director of "Reparaturwerke Erfurt GmbH" before October 1940. As well he was not removed because of political trouble.
He had caused financial problems and local Thuringian researchers do not see him innocent in this matter or as victim of the NS-Regime. Also in his case his individual perception or description of history has to go through a cross-check with available documents of this time. Only after this work one can know the real JJ and if his version of history is 100 % trustworthy.

2) So-called KTB are often not real "diaries" because entries were often made with a long delay (and sometimes even after the war) and it was also not uncommon that aviators did re-write their diaries or recollections (because of different motives). I am also possessing the text of another holder of the Pour le Mérite who did write 3 versions of his war diary: an original version, a "censored" and more anonymous second version and an improved final (?) version. Therefore one should not outrule the potential existance of different versions of one source too early. Not every difference is the result of fakes.

Best regards
Hannes

By the way: Hal Oele and MT are two different persons.

[StephenLawson]

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Dear Mr Lawson,

it is not my discussion or favorite subject and I did not read the whole thread but I think I should point out some facts to avoid misunderstandings (also of other readers):

1) Josef Jacobs did not spent the whole of WWII in Norway.
He was not removed as director of "Reparaturwerke Erfurt GmbH" before October 1940. As well he was not removed because of political trouble.
He had caused financial problems and local Thuringian researchers do not see him innocent in this matter or as victim of the NS-Regime. Also in his case his individual perception or description of history has to go through a cross-check with available documents of this time. Only after this work one can know the real JJ and if his version of history is 100 % trustworthy.

Just a check here. I never said for the "whole of WWII" I simply said "WWII" The president of the Orden Pour le Merite brotherhood was warned by Göring that he was sending out the order to arrest Jacobs. He was told to get Jacobs out of the way. Now who was the over all commander in Norway? anyone? Who was the president of the orden Pour le Merite brotherhood? My references show the "official reason" Jacobs was to be arrested was his refusal to nazify. Udet was not Göring's first scapegoat. I find you disparaging comments on Jacobs character less than honourable.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

2) So-called KTB are often not real "diaries" because entries were often made with a long delay (and sometimes even after the war) and it was also not uncommon that aviators did re-write their diaries or recollections (because of different motives). I am also possessing the text of another holder of the Pour le Mérite who did write 3 versions of his war diary: an original version, a "censored" and more anonymous second version and an improved final (?) version. Therefore one should not outrule the potential existance of different versions of one source too early. Not every difference is the result of fakes. .

So your saying the family would sell a fake? The same diary that Jacobs used for reference even in the book under discussion. Thats right you haven't read the whole thread. The consecutive daily entries of 365 pages are bogus in your opinion? Whoever the fellow you mention is not the concern here. Or rather not gremain to the subject. His reasons were not Jacobs'. Unless you have something to contribute directly to personal knowledge of the Jacobs diary, woulda, coulda, shoulda has no value.

Originally Posted by rammjaeger

Best regards
Hannes

By the way: Hal Oele and MT are two different persons.

A prankster is a prankster, birds of a feather flock together. . .have it as you will. Need I remind you -they, he, them misquoted the article to dicredit the diary. A falsehood is a falsehood. Thats right you haven't read the whole thread. I forgot.

[rammjaeger]

Mr Lawson,

I regret your unwise decision to chose a confrontational course of discussion and to misinterpet and twist the lines in my post. If one lives thousands of miles away from the locations of German aviation history then one should take advices and documents of local historians serious and try to check all documents and opportunities. You decided to take another way and you did not even ask concerning the researchers and documents in question.
You are only harming yourself. Therefore I won´t argue with you.

Regards
H.

[Hal Oele]

Mr. Lawson,

it would be very kind of you, if you stop to tell us always the same old story.
We´re tired to hear from evil germans, who trie to manipulate the history...

Also your negative political propaganda:
„There has been, is and will be a strain of fellows that believe that German history can only be researched by Germans. It is highly offensive to these fellows that anyone, who is not German says, or publishes anything about German history“
was absolute nonsens!

Everyone is able to research german history!
BUT - you have to accept, that some german guys have much more knowledge than you ever realize. The reason? We´re sitting inside a country thats full of material. Archives with tons of documents that never see the light, hundreds of familys with thousands of photographs of Grandpa´s time in WW1 waiting to discover.
We travel every year thousands of miles to contact the relatives, we spend our holidays in archives, and we learn everyday!

Collecting second or third hand information from dead researchers or buying material on Ebay has nothing to do with serious research!

Peter and Neal travelled every year to germany, to visit archives and to met some friends who are willing to support them.
What did you do... ?


Back to the Jacobs case:
Nobody wanted to discredited JJ. But the truth could be very hard...
JJ was not a classical hero, chisseled in white Carrara marble.
JJ was an ordinary human beeing like you and me, with all mistakes we made in our lifetime.
Also JJ made some big mistakes...

You can find some explosive documents in the Bundesarchiv Freiburg, call number RL3-1467!

For instance:
19.3.1940
Die Berichte der Revisions- und Treuhandgesellschaft über die Prüfung des Geschäftsjahres 1938 des Reparaturwerkes Erfurt enthalten schwerwiegende Beanstandungen, und zwar ungeklärte Kassendifferenzen, undurchsichtige Zusammenhänge des Reparaturwerkes mit verschiedenen anderen Unternehmungen ferner eine Reihe Unstimmigkeiten in der Kassenführung. Zunächst soll eine sofortige Prüfung mit dem Bauunternehmen Gockenbach durch die Staatspolizei erfolgen. Zur Zeit der Prüfung soll der Betriebsführer Josef Jacobs beurlaubt werden.
Als Betriebsleiter und stellvertretender Geschäftsführer soll Direktor Schmidt der Firma Fieseler eingesetzt werden.
Gezeichnet
Udet

One year after formation the company „Reparaturwerk Erfurt“ in 1937, Jacobs (as executive manager) made wangling real estate dealings with some old friends (Gockenbach, Schubert, Oertel, Jäger), his Brother Fritz and his first wife. He thought he could rip off the Reichsluftfahrtministerium...
JJ pays with money that wasn´t his own...
Signed for 583.256,86 Reichsmark, the financial fraud comes to light - peanuts?
Through the investigation JJ went into jail for a short time.

Josef Jacobs was never a victim of the „Nationalsozialisten“. He got problems with the system because he was just criminal...

This information was brought to you
by Hal (and only Hal!)

[van der Laan]

I sure JJ was as bad an accountant as was a Goering a pilot and leader, but what the heck, JJ was a hell of a pilot and no one is doubting that I am positive JJ had his faults, just as each of us and even my father does, but I am celebrating JJ's pilotage not his accounting skills. So he was just a human....so what. Those things don't really interest me. What does interest me is his years in the WW1 era and his aircraft.


I do welcome all the banter on the subject, pros and cons, so do not abandon this thread, all are welcome.


Back to the party. A few party photos now. These are sourced from everyone from Ferko, to Puglisi to O'Connor and others. Enjoy

[van der Laan]

[van der Laan]

[MicroSculpt]

van der Laan:

Great images! Thank you for sharing.

I am uncertain about the identity of #15. It does not look like JJ. For one thing he looks rather portly. This is of course possible.

But — check the ears. Look at the lobes. The brows and area at the bridge of the nose too. Are we certain this is JJ?

Tom

[Thomas Trauner]

At least the uniform is the same.....

Thomas

[van der Laan]

Microsculpt:
I hear ya on the identity of 15, it does look exactly like him in 10 years, but I too wondered if its him. I'll post an older picture of him and see what you guys think. If it is him, I wonder why he is a little heavier.