Ltn Joeph Jacobs and the quest for the 2nd DEVIL image

[van der Laan]

Was zum TeuXel ... ?


Ha Ha Ha ...

CLIPPED "as in you will not or you do not have the whole photo to post?"

I do not get it, but then I am not a german language native speaking english ..... so I think it was lost in translation? My Good Friend from Adlershof

But of that photo "I CALL BULLXHIT ON IT" and its a modern composite.


Post the whole thing and lets have a look, if its not a composite I can prove it to you, but I'll bet its a composit and done quite recently.


Thanks for the the post anyway, I love it and while we are at it if you want , I can post an excellant fake of the image that is a true master piece



maybe later

[Cigogne]

Hal is legit and doesn't mess with faked photos. That tidbit is interesting in that it shows Jacobs aircraft pre-Balkenkreuz. As to the other print I was talking about, I don't have a print but it appears in the Windsock Datafile Special on the Fokker Triplane (photo 21), but in the old Cross & Cockade US (Vol. 6/4) there is a larger view of the photo and that is where the outline of the insignia can be better discerned. It isn't a great photo, but is as good or better than the 470/17 photo you posted. So, hopefully, combining all of these pieces can help.

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Hal Oele:

Is this your photo or is it Manfred's?

Lloyd...

[Cigogne]

van der Laan, et al,

Here is the image I was talking about where some glimpse can be seen. I had to export it from the Cross & Cockade Vol.6/4 PDF file and fix the screen pattern. It still is not great quality, but better than nothing. The focus is the propeller w/ the chunk taken out of it, but you can see some of the insignia in the background before the fuselage cross. Engine appears to show one of the Clerget pushrods. Also note that the undercarriage doesn't have the extra vertical axle wing support rods seen in other photos.

[van der Laan]

Originally Posted by Cigogne

Hal is legit and doesn't mess with faked photos. That tidbit is interesting in that it shows Jacobs aircraft pre-Balkenkreuz. As to the other print I was talking about, I don't have a print but it appears in the Windsock Datafile Special on the Fokker Triplane (photo 21), but in the old Cross & Cockade US (Vol. 6/4) there is a larger view of the photo and that is where the outline of the insignia can be better discerned. It isn't a great photo, but is as good or better than the 470/17 photo you posted. So, hopefully, combining all of these pieces can help.

If indeed its legit, then why oh why would he not post it?? What possible reason would some one who collects original photos and prides themself on being the person known for having "THE PHOTO" have for posting only 1/10 of a world class find? Isthis some form of new research? In fact, posting only the portion that is already known, but obfuscating the "Holy Grail" portion?

In short, if its such a find did exist, why would someone not show it, its not like we are asking for the original to be given away. Is there some notion of loss thiis person would experience?

As I said before, I cannot understand their sentiment.

[Laserlloyd]

Originally Posted by van der Laan

If indeed its legit, then why oh why would he not post it?? What possible reason would some one who collects original photos and prides themself on being the person known for having "THE PHOTO" have for posting only 1/10 of a world class find? Isthis some form of new research? In fact, posting only the portion that is already known, but obfuscating the "Holy Grail" portion?

In short, if its such a find did exist, why would someone not show it, its not like we are asking for the original to be given away. Is there some notion of loss thiis person would experience?

In the collection of photos I have some that I have posted and others that I have been ask to hold on to because the owner asked not to publicly show it yet. I have a few unpublished photos too that I haven't shown yet either.

For me I can see why someone would want to protect what they have. Once someone posts a photo here everyone will have it.

The Aerodrome forum has come a long way, back in the day people were very hesitant to share anything. It took a lot to get where we are today here on the forum with people share their collections from photo, artifacts and documents. Being able to see just a closeup is fine with me and I have done the same to protect the photo.

Collections that someone has worked hard in attaining and sometimes a great cost to them is kinda hard to just give it a way for free. There are lots of photos that you will never see. Opp's we will never see because they are in these private collections. We can just hope that one day some of them will end up in a book so all of us to look at.

Lloyd...

[FliegerJG1]

Well, I wonder what the aces themselves would desire. Would they be satisfied to see historians frustrated, kept in the dark wondering about things that could be easily solved by the sharing of information?

If I paid millions of dollars for a piece of Voss' cowling and the secret love letters of MvR, I would see no reason to hold these back from historians because of the overall benefit to the study of history.

FliegerJG1

[van der Laan]

"Collections that someone has worked hard in attaining and sometimes a great cost to them is kinda hard to just give it a way for free" laserloyd

You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head here LASER!

I sometimes find it hard to express exactly what I mean when writing, but you, in your statement, have indirectly asked the question I really want to ask

“its kind a hard to just give it a way for free”

This is the heart of it. They are not asked to GIVE anything away. They are going to keep the photo forever. What’s being asked is that they publish it, but therein lies the real problem: they somehow fall into the group of hoarders and collectors rather than of historian, and people like myself confuse these two groups all too often.

This is probably why myself and others cannot understand their sentiment: because we attribute the honor of the historian to the real driving emotion of the collector: the need to have something others do not
I guess knowing and pontificating upon subjects, that seem unreachable to historians and the like could be a real emotion shared between the historian and the collector. Having found something of great import to others and being able to taunt them with it, I assume has its own reward, but this starts to define the differences between the two groups. I guess it is only natural that an OPENSOURCE collection, reachable by all would be viewed by a collector as a defeat brought about by technology, rather than an achievement that would benefit us all. It would kind of castrate these kinds of folks.

As an example, if you look back at the posts by old (Hal Oele) you’ll find a long string of entries each posting tiny pieces of great photos that intentionally do not reveal anything but claim “I have what you want, but will not let you see it, here is just enough of the photo to prove it”

like this one



That’s not something to defend in my opinion but rather to avoid. My original statement still stands regarding "the photo posted by portion is a composite!”

I do not believe this person is being malicious, I think they are just having fun and the photo is known not to be authentic by that person.

I accept the post in jest and do not have a problem with it, I only point out my view point so as not to detract others on this thread that may put credence in it, who not understanding it was a joke, may think that that image really revealed anything useful at all.

[Laserlloyd]

Hi van der Laan:

For some time here on the forum there has been some differences of opinions on some subject like the lozenge fabric scheme and color. With no offense to Hal Oele as I don't know him but the photo you posted I believe don't belong to Hal Oele but Manfred T. As some of us know MT was band from the forum and Hal is a friend of MT that continue to voice MT's message. If I have this wrong then let me know. As far as that photo goes I think MT was trying to convey his design of the lozenge fabric scheme with out giving away what ever he has invented.

I thinks that over that past couple of year here some people have really open some of there collection like Greg VW, Stephen L., Taz, Dave Watts just to mention a few. I know I had a hard time in the beginning as I too found it that know one wanted to share information on what they knew or had. I to would like to have a "OPENSOURCE" reference here but I don't think we could convince everyone in contributing so I settle for what information I can weed out of the forum and injunction with making some good friends here that are the real experts in their field.

I don't think I could call myself a researcher if we had an "OPENSOURCE" venue, after all I do like the hunt in find out the information I'm looking for.

Lloyd...

[van der Laan]

I understand some of the reasons people want to possess and keep photos to themselves. I know from personal experience that there are countless photos I purchased of German aircraft back in 1979 from an estate say in Austin, TX. I am so damn lazy, and because there are no Triplanes in the collection, I’ve never scanned them, it is unfair of me to keep them to myself but I paid a lot of money for them and feel a sense of loss if I just give them away. As such, I understand why a lot of folks do not post some of their pictures…..but when you’ve already scanned them in?

None the less, part of this thread is to promote the OPENSOURCE of WW1 images and documents. I had planned on bringing this up way down range and then starting another thread on it. Suffice it to say, as a technologist who has dealt with archival mechanisms for medical, radiological geospatial and massive archival information systems for more than 30 years, I speak from authority when I say… IT IS WITH IN OUR GRASP to change this situation for the better.

To remake the notion of archive for our collections and the collections of others we only need to band together, the way the four or five folks did that originally created C&C. We could create a Wikipedia like interface over massive digital copies of our material, that a select and approved community of (WW1 WIKIPEADIANS), if you will, can collect, collate, sort, annotate and weight copies from originals such that when you or I search the archive, we find exactly what we want and a whole lot more: the product of an intelligent collection working itself to solve problem and resolve questions. Like Google: the bigger it gets the more connections it can make between photos and the more intelligent its responses to our questions. As time marches on, it will
get bigger and more intelligent as we interact with it.

In such a system, due to just a few years of annotation (due to the casual work of the WIKIPEADIANS), you would be able to follow a machine or person through its life on the front. You would see the comments from the likes of Achim Engles, or Ron Bloomquist concerning modern construction, or the comments of Udo Jorges on original engine design and performance, metallurgy and the likes. The images would weave a chronological web against one another, from which we could draw new conclusions that were not at all apparent when all the photos were split asunder. The aerodrome (a privately held resource), is not the correct venue for this collection, but we could find one and leverage it I’m sure). The design and software for such a site already exists and is free, all we have to do is commit to one another to using it and champion it as did the first Wikipedia’s a few years back.

If anyone is interested we can start a new thread and mark the beginnings of that effort, I have a particular pile of pictures in mind that could be used to jumpstart this effort, and once that effort catches fire, I feel that most collectors would open their collections to it in the long run, especially since they can keep their original photos in their desk drawer while contributing