Ltn Joeph Jacobs and the quest for the 2nd DEVIL image

[StephenLawson]

1925 Reburial of MvR's upper skeletal remains in Berlin.

[StephenLawson]

This about Jacobs. nez paux?

[Hal Oele]

Hello van der Laan,

what i want to show you, with both pictures, is the fact that Udet didn´t wear a uniform. Neither in 1925 (the picture with the 20 Pour le Merits), nor in 1933 (second picture/Bundesarchiv). In the second picture only Bruno Loerzer, Arthur Laumann and Paul Wenzel wearing a early form of the 1933 Deutscher-Luftsport-Verband uniform. The guys from the "Reichswehr" right hand side are no flyers!
The reason why Udet did it? The answer is his personality - and that filled a book...

File closed?
Greetings
Hal

[SCMc]

Hi van der Laan,

Could you explain why you believe the photo in post #64 is a composite. It may be obvious to you, but I don't see it.

Steve

[van der Laan]

Here is why I always assumed the photo was a composite.

1) most everyone is looking in the same the direction, except a few, they are staring off in to space

2) Everyone is dressed the same, for the same time year, except the same people staring off into space, they are dressed for a different season.

3) (and I could be wrong on this one, someone please show me where I am)
JJ got his PLM in 18 July 1918, Boelcke died in 1916: did they raise Boelcke from the grave for the foto? or did they read the tea leaves and give JJ a PLM for a day so he could make the foto

4) Udet is wearing his Berlin Cabaret dress and spats on his shoes as Hal points out

5) There is a lack of focus on Boelcke yet Udet is perfectly in focus, yet his friends to either side are again softly focused.



My assumption is that were ever this photo has come from, it was built by compositing various posed photos from sources of the time, or the year before.

I have always assumed this was the case: but I could be wrong on all accounts. Does anyone else believe the same or am I the sole man standing in a field alone? The real test for this photo is this what is that date it was taken, and is everyone in it alive at that time, are there any other photos of this event showing them together? MT have anything hidden away?

[alex_revell]

Just a few observations. I agree that the purpose of historical research is to find and then publish or share one's findings, including photographs, which are an important source of information. Fortunately, I've never met anyone who has refused to share information or photos requested, unless it is because they are part of a book which they are preparing for publication. Then they give that reason and it is understood. Alex Imrie, for instance, has always thrown open his collection of photos to anyone who has asked. I saw Neal there, many times in the past when he was producing his books, and Peter Grosz, and there are others. Talking of photographs, however, I'd like a Pound/dollar for all the photos I have found that have been published by other people, either without any credit, or credited to someone else - usually, and this is the trick, credited to someone who is dead. People should realise that many photos are obtained by finding the original owners in the first place, then travelling to visit them, and then paying for prints of their photos. That whole process can be a very expensive business. To see other people publishing such photos - for which they are paid by the publisher - without any acknowledgement of where they came from in the first place, can be very unfair. When I was researching HITEB I was pretty poor and when I found another pilot or groundcrew, went to see them, and they produced a large number of photos, I had two conflicting emotions: great, exciting photos, but how was I going to pay to have them copied. It's hard to see one's work either not credited or credited to someone else.

[MicroSculpt]

van der Laan:

Are the two photos at the end of your last post a comparison? If so, the closeup in the group photo is not Boelcke. Please compare the shape of the lower ear and the eye structure. They are not the same. Moreover, at the end of his career, Boelcke's face was very lean.

Sorry.

Tom

[Reinout]

Isn't that Arthur Laumann? I think it got mentioned earlier in this thread that udet was standing between Laumann and Loerzer.

Kind regards,

Reinout

[van der Laan]

A wise old bird once told me “Mikell you’re pretty damn smart, but never get so damn smart that you cannot admit when you are wrong, because if you end up like that, you’ve stopped learning and life is but one big lesson”

In that vein this whole thread is a way for me to learn a bit more about old Jacobs, and thanks to a private email confirming to me that indeed I am wrong about the afore mentioned PLM gathering, I admit it, I’m wrong….the photo really is genuine and everyone in it was alive and well when it was taken. No idea why some of the characters look out of place, but I have learned that there is some other explanation other than a composite photo because this is no composite photo.

As mentioned above, the leading error on my behalf was always assuming the the person just to the right of JJ was O. Boelcke, but its not …it’s Arthur Laumann.

Here is the proof… not doubt about it. Looking at the two ( Boelcke and Laumann ) there appears to be little to no resemblance at all now. A picture realy is worth a thousand words.

Still learning and never to proud to say so.


Reinout: You got it right for sure

MicroSculpt: Your eyes are keener than mine, that is probably why if I attempted to sculpt either of them my product would never come close to yours. thanks for the input.

[Fabryflieger]

An amazing job and great pics. JJ's black tripe is probably my favorite paint scheme of them all. I've read that JJ did an interview in the 1970's but have been unable to find the transcript. Can anybody help me out?
Thanks.