Man Moment Machine MVR. Let's count the mistakes

[JFM]

Hi, Otis,

Besides that show, that account is in Norman Franks' and Alan Bennett's The Red Baron's Last Flight: A Mystery Investigated, Grub Street, 1997, p.61. It may be elsewhere but that's where I first saw it. The son of Gunner Ernest Twycross of the Royal Garrison Artillery said his father reached the plane first and MvR "gurgled or gasped: '...kaput,' and died. He said the words sounded like 'War es kaput,' but with the noise around he couldn't be sure, but 'kaput' came into it." I've seen this debated here and there, and I think Mr. Franks pops in here now and then so perhaps he'll comment.

I will add that IMO you should grab the book! Bursting with 21 April 1918 info.

[Stephan]

ER, you shouted at me Alex, that was the point of my posting, let's be clear on that. I have news for you, mistakes exist on the web, its something you'll have to get used to. Throwing a tantrum when a person innocently presents something will not prevent this from occurring in the future. People aren't 100% perfect & quite up to your standards. & as to perpetuating anything, 2 things, you infer it was done purposefully to get others to believe in a non truth, not true. 2nd, just because it gets posted doesn't mean all will believe it without question.

& the fact that you still refuse to avail any of us to what you believe the truth on this matter reveals an unwillingness to rectify the issue you are so fluttered over & have taken me to task over.


P.S. Perhaps its escaped you that the original vein of this thread I posted was discussing & correcting errors about a certain WW 1 figure!?

[GMU]

Ok guys, my 3 cents:


1. Lucky Shot? I do not believe this. Lucky shot is when I go to the range and hit the target dead center. “Lucky shot” undermines the skill and experience the guys fighting against MvR had. They were seasoned allied servicemen, they deliberately shot at MvR, and they got him. Of course, this was certainly an unlucky shot for MvR.


2. MvR uttering some words after his landing? IMO this is hard to believe. Have you seen the photos of MvR’s corpse? He hit his head very, very, hard upon crash landing. He broke his jaw, his nose, and lost several teeth. Had he not been already dead, this would’ve certainly killed him, or at the very least, rendered him unconscious. I believe he did not say a word, but that is my opinion based on the injuries I see on the pictures.

Indeed, as Alex said, one should not believe in everything that has been said or written, even by people who might have witnessed the event. The passage of time, and the story being told over and over, sometimes romanticized and/or twisted, could confuse all but the very best of an eyewitness’ memory.

The notion that MvR landed alive and then was executed is complete nonsense IMO.

They buried him with full honors!

3. McCudden. I confess that I have not read much about him, nor have I read HITEB, but it is very hard for me to believe that such an experienced and fine pilot could have made a novice mistake like that.


George

[alex_revell]

Stephen,
I used to think that the old joke about the man who was asked if he could read and answered ‘Yes, but not so’s I can understand it, ‘ was just that - a joke. Unfortunately, I’ve since learnt otherwise and I'm afraid that it appears that you are one of those who can’t seem to understand what you are reading. Firstly, I did not shout at you. It appears that your ignorance of email and web etiquette, matches that of your ignorance of WW1 aviation. Shouting is conveyed by using capitals. Secondly, it is not news to me, as you say, that information on the web is often inaccurate, but why should I, or anyone else, get used to it. I don't think that I threw a tantrum. It's just that I'm one of those strange people who think that if one publishes something it should be as accurate and truthful as one can make it, otherwise it's misleading and adds nothing to historical understanding or criticism. I did not infer- as you say - that you did it purposefully to get others to believe in an untruth, merely that you were perpetuating a misconception, based on the ignorance of the original writer and should know better than to do so. 'Because it was posted doesn't mean all will believe it without question'. I should hope not. But then why post it in the first place.
You say that I am unwilling to rectify the issue. Not true. I have done this in at least two books. I believe that most of the people who post on this forum have read those books and know my position - based on a great deal of research - regarding the cause of the crash. Why should I waste time explaining it again to you. Buy or borrow the books and read them.
No, the original purpose of this thread has not escaped me. But it was you who brought up the subject of McCudden's fatal crash. All I ask is that you gain a little more personal knowlege before you post from inaccurate web sites.

[Stephan]

I see I'm ignorant & a stupid clot who can't read, therefore you shouldn't waste time explaining it to me. Your insults are of the same quality of your nitpicks, shitty. Wonderful neighborly sort aren't we?

Instead of wasting board space abusing a person you don't even know,( how would you know what my WW 1 aviation knowledge level is?), why don't you beat your kids or something instead.

& this is what publish means Alex.

pub⋅lish
  /ˈpʌblɪʃ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [puhb-lish] Show IPA
Use publish in a Sentence
–verb (used with object)
1. to issue (printed or otherwise reproduced textual or graphic material, computer software, etc.) for sale or distribution to the public.


I can see I'm communicating with an ass---- who has no consideration for others, so there's no point in carrying on with you. You still refuse to even share a tidbit of data from your book as though it were some sort sacred text containing pearls of wisdom reserved only for those special initiates with polished halos.

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
In 1972 and 1976 Patti and I followed the air battle over the Somme on 21 April 1918. We drove along the Somme from Sailly le Sec to Vaux Sur Somme, the north to the road on Molancourt Ridge, then west to the brick factory, then ewst about a quarter mile to about where the crash site was. In the desiption of the battle they said, they were below tree top level, well that puts them less than 50 feet. The trees bordering the the Somme were 50 feet and less along the river. And Molancourt Ridge is about 250 to three hundred feet high above the river valley. So both pilots would have had to climb. Flying that low with obstructions, trees and such requires the pilots attention, which reduces available firing times. I don't think it was MvR off on his firing, but fire on the times when he could fire with target availability. I think what saved Lt. May's life, was when he decided to take the low road, he greatly reduced target MvR target availability. The Somme takes two curves and trees bordered the river, it required both pilots to pay attention. Had Lt. May flown a higher course, I think the battle would have had a different ending.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[Ginger.]

Originally Posted by Stephan

Titbit of data from your book as though it were some sort sacred text containing pearls of wisdom reserved only for those special initiates with polished halos.

It is a sacred text. Read it, digest, and then stop talking bollocks!

[Stephan]

No Bollocks mate. All he had to say was... Stephan I've done some research & he didn't die as the site mentioned, here's how it happened... That's all he had to say, instead he soiled himself from his self built throne with a silly lecture about errors on the net, ( something we all already know), then went off with the deep end with personal stuff that was entirely unnecessary & by god let us all know he's superior because he wrote a book. It was smug. He's in love with himself & considers we lowly humans should kowtow to him & shine his boots. I wouldn't buy his rotty book if he paid me.


GMU, as to the shot being lucky, I understand your point. In boxing they call it a lucky punch. Its rot because as you say, it was aimed at the person it was intended for & it landed as intended. Many say it was lucky cause it IS a difficult shot to make, a moving target at 5-600 yards. But alas, one thing many don't figure in is that the Aussie on the ground could well have been a damn good shot & it was Manfreds ill fortune to cross his path. Unknown it shall forever remain.

[EricGoedkoop]

This is truly an enchanted place.

I'll never stray again.

[Ginger.]

Originally Posted by Stephan

I wouldn't buy his rotty book if he paid me.

Can't fault you there mate, it's a right load of ill researched old cobblers!
I only bought it 'cos it was cheap 'an the front cover reminded me of a Commando war comic... couple of SEs, piloted by no marks, looking for trouble.