How I hate the man!

[mikec]

Originally Posted by UPZZZZ

Despite of all his warcrimes:
I've read he saved the lives of the jewish war-pilots Willi Rosenstein (his former wingman during his command at Jasta 27) and Fritz Beckhardt by his political influence when the Nazis tried to arrest them. So Rosenstein was able to escape to South Africa and Beckhardt to Switzerland.Only my 2 Cents!

Another small correction. Fritz Beckhardt left Germany on 10 December 1940, leaving from Berlin together with his wife, Emma. The journey went Germany - Belgium -France - Spain - then back into, [German-controlled], France, then on to Spain again and finally to Portugal. A journey that should have taken 4 days ended up taking about 6 weeks. After a little more than 4 months in Portugal they flew to Bristol, England.

Fuller details and much, much more will be in Lorenz Beckhardt's book on his grandfather's life story, which will hopefully be finished and published within the next two years.

As regards his relationship with Goering, Beckhardt was contacted after the end of WW2 and asked to testify in Goering's favour at the upcoming Nuremburg Trials. He refused.

"Goering's mastery of the facts and persuasive manner were particularly noticeable. On the other hand, apart from the questions of the Jewish persecutions Goering's story amounted almost to a plea of guilty and there was little if anything of importance for which he was not prepared to accept responsibility".

From British War Crimes Executive letter to the War Office, 14 March 1946, quoted in Richard Overy's, "Interogations".

[Sagittarius]

Wasnt Göring known for his statement "Wer Jude ist, und wer nicht, entscheide immer noch ich" - "I decide who's jewish and who's not".
He made his point quite clear, didn't he?

I just can't get over these little excuses like "he was a brave fighter pilot", "intelligent, clever, good leader" and so on. You cannot just seperate his 'good' side from his atrocities. He was responsible for mass murder like the world never seen before, regardless if he was a janitor or a fighter pilot or something else 20 years before.

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by Sagittarius

Wasnt Göring known for his statement "Wer Jude ist, und wer nicht, entscheide immer noch ich" - "I decide who's jewish and who's not".
He made his point quite clear, didn't he?

I just can't get over these little excuses like "he was a brave fighter pilot", "intelligent, clever, good leader" and so on. You cannot just seperate his 'good' side from his atrocities. He was responsible for mass murder like the world never seen before, regardless if he was a janitor or a fighter pilot or something else 20 years before.

Whilst emphatically agreeing with everything in your post, and whilst not wanting to drift to far I consider the whole lot responsible for mass murder---even such 'reasonable seeming' and self effacing one's like Albert Speer-----or Frederick Flick (who was one of the bankrollers)--Alfried Krupp (who served 6 years then was released and had his huge fortune restored--even though he plundered Europe for Slave Workers--able to be 'worked to death')!!

And, perhaps most awkward of all---the ordinary Wermacht soldier--a great many of which (it was'nt just S.S.) committed mass atrocities in Russia against the civilian population.

Millions---or one family murdered--and that is not the same as civilian bombing, for instance----the crime against humanity was not just Goring and the 'elite'---it was an entire Country (and Japan---quite beyond the bounds of this forum---is not forgotten, I trust)

Remember though that this is history now---Goring was without doubt a monster, in a century when monsters stalked the Earth---but he, and they did not succeed----but many innocent lives were sacrificed to reach that end.

Dave.

[Stephan]

I had a book about WW 1 German Aces, a fairly recent one that mentions his claims were harder to back up than any of the other "name" German Aces. It was about Aces other than Richthofen. Forget exact title. Searching.

[Sagittarius]

bristol,

Remember though that this is history now---Goring was without doubt a monster, in a century when monsters stalked the Earth---but he, and they did not succeed----but many innocent lives were sacrificed to reach that end.

I'am afraid we'll have to fight them again and again... it maybe will never stop.

And yes, it was something done by millions of people and they have been very good in quickly forgetting the past 13 years. It was a completely failure of every institutions a society has.

[Tom_Cervo]

Over the Front, Vol. 10, no.3, Fall 1995 contains a long article by Frank Olynyk, The Combat Records of Herman Goering. It's 40 pages long. In his preface Frank states "Allowing for exaggerations and disputes, these battle records of Goering's are quite impressive and detail his outstanding capabilities. Historians looking for the genesis of Goering's evil will probably not find it in these accounts."
He ends with Goering's last posting, and the words "Like Arnold's leg, he now left the best part of his life behind him."

Nothing to improve on those judgments, nor on the accompanying aircraft profiles by Greg Van Wyngarden.

[John McKenzie]

Hi all, ...Not to take any view on this at all ,....but just offer a word or two (from memory) from the Bible for your thoughts...(I have no doubt , that there will be counter quotes , but that is inevitable ..)............" Judge not , lest ye also may be judged ".........And ref to Hiroshima , "Stalin" , Dresden ,etc. and all the White Phospherous bombs "not" being used Today................" Let him who is without sin ..cast the first stone ! "..............Just leave all these judgements to the GOD.........That's HIS job .......Regards ..John.

[Sagittarius]

@John McKenzie:

So in plain words your saying: "Kill them all, God will know His own"? Or did I understood you wrong?

A crime is not relativized just because other crimes have been committed.

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by John McKenzie

Hi all, ...Not to take any view on this at all ,....but just offer a word or two (from memory) from the Bible for your thoughts...(I have no doubt , that there will be counter quotes , but that is inevitable ..)............" Judge not , lest ye also may be judged ".........And ref to Hiroshima , "Stalin" , Dresden ,etc. and all the White Phospherous bombs "not" being used Today................" Let him who is without sin ..cast the first stone ! "..............Just leave all these judgements to the GOD.........That's HIS job .......Regards ..John.

Hi John,
With the greatest repect i would only add that those who (like myself) do not believe in any god---or gods--find it difficult to await these 'judgements'! As i'm sure millions upon millions of the sorely oppressed throughout history have.

I imagine that the Negroes in pre Civil War America would have prefferred a judgement from on high---to not enslave them in the first place would have been a good one! But instead it had to be indomitable and devoted men who did it, the real hard way.

The Jews in Europe in the thirties and forties..........you see where i'm going John.

As i know you are, like myself, a bit into the Crusades---I know you will remember the terrible events (Cathar Crusade) in BEziers in Southern France when possibly as many as 10,000 residents were massacred by Papal authority (the town had allied itself to the Cathar 'heresy') and when asked who should be deemed innocent the answer was...'kill them all for god will know his own'..!!

Best not just leave such things to someones interpretation of what a diety thinks----and let millions die waiting for divine retribution. Best to go with international law and basic morality.

Some sins are so great that we must not let them go while awaiting whoevers god may, or may not, take the time to intervene.

As i said up front John---my feelings are of respect.

Dave.---edit bugger sag. you got in before me!!!!!!!

[Sagittarius]

@bristol: