How I hate the man!

[John McKenzie]

Sagittarius...In plain words...I said what I said , Nothing more and nothing less....I got it from that book , the "BIBLE."......If you want clarification , you will have to concult the author !...........(.Bristol ), Dave ,.....In all friendliness ...You know very well that , if you were to look at history from a TOTALY un-biased point of view , (almost an impossabilaty you should admit ), you will see that the general oppinion of the public ,including very much its morality , is very much dependant on that of the times in which they live ... and therefor , to pass judgement , back upon a past era will always be biased in favour of the views that later prevail......These are ever changing.........Just think....If your own views on God were to have been expressed anywhen back before ? 1500?....You would , QUITE RIGHTLY , probably in the views held by (almost? ) the whole country . have been sentenced to be burned at the stake.........People were just as sure of the rightness of their views then as you are of the rightness of you views today........The same applied to slave trade.....When it was the normal way of things , then everyone thought it was right ,and in fact it would have been those who stood against the right and just views of the majority (sic) who would have been thought of as wrong or sinfull and even criminal............As for the Pope , here is a case , especially in the context that you mentioned (re Cathars )....where a man ( or men ) perports to speak for God......Overall , the bible isn't too bad on morality , but Depends how its interpreted.....As you know , ever this is the word of man perporting to be the word of God.....The truth to tell , God would probably have nothing to do with it .....At the end of the day , IF there is no God (and I dont say either way myself , I don't know , and I don't know anyone who does )..... Who then will stand in the place for God,... Who says what is sin ? ... Who will be the judge of all time.....? ..George W ? Regular guy T.B.?...Whose " International" law.....Just thinking about the invasion of Irac.....Depends on your point of view ...You get my drift.......I'm NOT , repeat , NOT , on ANY side......THAT IS THE POINT.................In the spirit of all friendliness , .....John

[John McKenzie]

..Just tuning into TV " Question Time "........To see the politicians lieing through their teeth ........Be seeing you..JM

[Sagittarius]

I got it from that book , the "BIBLE."......If you want clarification , you will have to concult the author

I won't argue with you who've written it but he seems to have a weird sort of humor...

[bristol scout]

Hi John,

And if i was to go into any Islamic state today i would, without a seconds hesitation be killed for my beliefs--or murdered on the streets protesting-----like Neda Agha-Soltan in Iran---or stoned to death-----like Soraya M Falsely convicted of adultery--would she have merited that even if she had of been an adulteress? Or had a death sentance passed against me for writing a book!!! Morality is not for the times, nor is it where you find it. It is secular---one does not have to believe in sharia law to live a moral life--nor, for that matter does one need to live to the scriptures---Catholocism still has a list of proscribed books that ought not to be read---and until quite recently still used that awful weapon (for believers) excommunication!

We all know if an act is evil and immoral---we instinctively know John----it doesn't change with the times-----the slaves in ancient times were very sure of the immorality of their state-----the Helots in ancient sparta new----Spartacus knew----and in the more recent world-- the victims of apartheid and also the various victims of ethnic cleansers--wether in Africa or eastern Europe knew that what was being perpetrated was evil and immoral----it was all their masters, their 'betters' who 'affected' indifference to their plight---because, of course, it was the 'world they lived in'.

Not good enough, i fear----no blanket whitewash (i'm not saying you are John)------Evil is evil, and from time to time throughout history there have been times when evil men did evil things----this is a simplicity, though certainly not, i hope, simplistic.

It is most certainly correct and indeed i would argue mandatory that we sit in judgement of these evil people because invariably thousands, if not millions have died to eradicate them and their ideologies---and will again in the future.

The judgment of history is, and rightly so, that these men are/were monsters----regardless of hitler loving dogs---regardless of drug addictions brought about by being in pain----I know you are not condoning them John---but let us not put politicians in western democracies---however good or bad, in the same league------at least we can vote them out of office---the true test of democracy in my view---------god, any one you care to chose---did not free the slaves---but we certainly gave him enough time to get around to it!

totally without rancour John,

Dave.

[John McKenzie]

Hi , ( is it tomorow already )...I fear Dave that you still cant divorce yourselve from todays morality to appreciate that yesteryears morality was just as valid to them , then ...as yours is to you , today .....Every generation thinks they are right ..always has , and always will do ......'Afraid I couldn't quite keep up with your....."history of the world "tour in 80 seconds............at this time of night ........No whitewash required.......As for history being the judge..(along with a little help from those of your own persuasion I suspect ? ).......There is no absolute on history....Tomorow is the history of the future...it changes depending on from when you view it and the " popular view " prevailing at the time .,...Forgetting what we " KNOW " to be right today ,( because we are such a truely moral society today ! )....Don't you think people might have thought the same thing about themselves in the near and distant past ..That they also knew they were right and truely moral , and thus they passed judgements , just as you are doing now....there is realy no difference in the Pope being right in 1300 to you being right today.......Me ?....I don't stand in judgement , so I'm neither right nor wrong.......Its not my perogetive ..........................(just hearing on the NEWS about the moraly just ,torture program that is now admitted to have been systematicaly going on......Would previously been kept SECRET in this democracy.....Truth is relative to what they want you to know ! )....Think we're going to have to continue to diverge on this one ......Regards ,as before....John....(and now to bed ! )

[John McKenzie]

Sagitarious......You are right ...He's a bit of a joker that God chap.......I bet he's having a big laugh at us all right now...chuckeling to himself at His next planned joke..........Friendly regards...John

[John McKenzie]

Hey look you guys ...Bown below...Even the adverts are coming out for God....

[John McKenzie]

Thank you all , my friends , for a very entertaining evening.....I leave you all now , in the spirit of friendliness ,to discuss this thread amongst yourselves in perhaps a more serious manner ......Have fun........Best regards to all ..John

[Hans]

John, what is your point within this thread? I only see these: .....

H

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by John McKenzie

Hi , ( is it tomorow already )...I fear Dave that you still cant divorce yourselve from todays morality to appreciate that yesteryears morality was just as valid to them , then ...as yours is to you , today .....Every generation thinks they are right ..always has , and always will do ......'Afraid I couldn't quite keep up with your....."history of the world "tour in 80 seconds............at this time of night ........No whitewash required.......As for history being the judge..(along with a little help from those of your own persuasion I suspect ? ).......There is no absolute on history....Tomorow is the history of the future...it changes depending on from when you view it and the " popular view " prevailing at the time .,...Forgetting what we " KNOW " to be right today ,( because we are such a truely moral society today ! )....Don't you think people might have thought the same thing about themselves in the near and distant past ..That they also knew they were right and truely moral , and thus they passed judgements , just as you are doing now....there is realy no difference in the Pope being right in 1300 to you being right today.......Me ?....I don't stand in judgement , so I'm neither right nor wrong.......Its not my perogetive ..........................(just hearing on the NEWS about the moraly just ,torture program that is now admitted to have been systematicaly going on......Would previously been kept SECRET in this democracy.....Truth is relative to what they want you to know ! )....Think we're going to have to continue to diverge on this one ......Regards ,as before....John....(and now to bed ! )

Hi John,
I went to bed before you guys
It was just, perhaps the way i read your post 27, where god comes into history--(and he comes in as he is wont to do, with a bit of a bang)---but which god did you have in mind John i wonder, because there is more than just one?
Looked like what you were saying---sorry if my 'history tour' got in the way, it was'nt meant to----was predicated on the belief that whatever happens now, or happened in the past--we, as 'sinners' can not go around flinging the morality stone---but must aquiesce, become almost accomplices therefore---in it and await someones god to do it for us.

Sit back and await divine intervention when faced with naked aggression or implacable evil---surely you are not advocating that John, so i must have misunderstood post 27's message----sorry.

I truly hope i am not guilty of putting todays standards onto historically remoter times---it is a danger i am well aware of and always strive to avoid that particular pitfall---but the perception of morality in the period of W.W.1 and 2 was exactly the same as today John---when Belgium was raped in 1914 everyone 'knew' that was an immorality. When Europe was chewed up by the evil of Facism that was naked aggression---every one knew it, just as clearly as we know it now.

We can, i assure you 'cast those stones' regardless of the degree of our own, by comparison mild, sins.

The pen may indeed be mightier than the sword---but the sword speaks louder at any given moment, i fear, and those that resort to it must face the audit of the society we all live in.

cheers,
Dave.