Werner Voss

[Catfish]

Hello Alex,

thanks for commmenting (and not shooting me down, ahem),

Bowman was of the opinion that Voss could have broken off the action any time because the triplane had a much superior rate of zoom than the SEs. That's not to say that he could then have got away completely.

Yes, that is what i meant - i had not heard about one or other British plane(s) above the scene. But it indeed seems Voss preferred to stay and fight it out anyway.

I don't believe that he had been drinking or had a hangover. He had shot down a DH in the morning of the 56 fight.

I cannot remember where i read this (aerodrome ? book?), so until there's no evidence i will not further mention this.

Thanks and greetings,
Catfish

[Gregvan]

Hi,

I'm not entering into this scrap, but I will say this. The story that Voss had a hangover on the day of his death is probably based on a completely apocryphal (i.e., false) story told in Quentin Reynolds' They Fought for the Sky. In Chapter 9 he tells a completely bogus tale of the party for Loerzer's Pour le Merite, in the Bristol Hotel on Unter den Linden in Berlin, thrown by Tony Fokker. According to Reynolds, the guest list included von Hoeppner, Loerzer, Goering, Udet, MvR, Lothar and Voss!!

Voss is supposed to have, "Led a toast to Tony Fokker, drained his glass, and announced with regret that his 24 hour leave was about to expire. 14 hours later he was once again flying high over the lines in his Triplane."

Complete bunk, for any number of reasons.

[alex_revell]

Greg,
That's one of the things I find most annoying about present day people who are interested in WW1 flying. That they still repeat nonsense stories written by dare I say it - hack journalists - who had very little specialised knowledge or interest in the subject and made things up to 'spice' up the story. One we had to put up with for may years was Whitehouse and his 'Voss, son of a poor Jewish tailor.' To Whitehouse, Voss was a Jew (incorrect) the stereotype Jew was a poor tailor sitting crosslegged on a bench stitching trousers. Ergo, Voss was the son of a poor Jewish tailor. Luckily that particular legend has now been long gone (I hope) but God preserve us from such people and their 'writing'.

[Gregvan]

Hi Alex,

The "Jewish Voss" myth probably started with Ira "Taffy" Jones. In An Air Fighter's Scrapbook, published in 1938, Jones (in his constant quest to denigrate Richthofen, and build up Voss as the better of the two - and Mannock as king of all...) wrote,

"Germany's greatest air fighter had Jewish blood. No country publicised the deeds of her air fighters more successfully, particularly national consumption, than the Germans. The heroic deeds of Baron Manfred von Richthofen, Oblt. M.F. Immelmann, Captain H.O. (sic) Boelcke, and Oblt. E. Udet, were constantly impressed upon the people so as to inspire them to greater effort on behalf of the Fatherland.

"...No person is less concerned with the domestic politics of our late enemy than myself, but if the truth, according to my own conception of it, must be told, Werner Voss, a Semite, her greatest air warrior, was relegated to the background when songs of glory were sung."

All of which is nonsense. I know that Taffy was acquainted with the exploits of MvR, Immelmann, Boelcke and Udet largely because - by 1938 - all had had lengthy books written about or by them which were either written in English (The Red Knight of Germany) or had been translated into English. Thus Taffy may have thought that Voss was "swept under the rug" by the Nazis because of his Jewish blood, simply because there wasn't an English book about him (at least, that's my assumption). The truth is, Voss was very much lionized in the German aeronautical press, both during the war and for many years after. The next year after Taffy's book, Rolf Italiaander published Pour le Mérite Flieger mit 20 Jahren, a worshipful Voss biography written for young readers. Voss was highly praised in such books as Jagd in Flanderns Himmel by Bodenschatz (1935) and Pour le Mérite Flieger by Walter Zuerl (1938). Indeed, McCudden's dramatic and respectful account of Voss' fatal combat had been printed in some British newspaper (The Daily Mail, perhaps?) and this account was translated into German and published in a number of German books, even before the end of the war. I cannot be sure of this, but perhaps there was never a book of letters from Voss because he simply didn't write many; he had trouble writing out a simple combat report, and was not a writer but a fighter.

So, I think Taffy's to blame for the "Jewish Voss" myth, and Whitehouse picked this up and embellished it further with the 'poor tailor from Krefeld' bunkum. Where Taffy may have gotten his ideas, I don't know; however, knowing of the anti-Semitic policies of the Nazi regime (including Goering) he didn't miss this chance to try to needle them, in his mind.

[alex_revell]

Greg
Yes, I agree with you that Taffy probably started the Voss/Jewish myth. But I think that was an excusable mistake, especially given the time in which it was made. What I was deploring was the Whitehouse style of hack journalism, making false connections - son of a poor Jewish taylor etc. Going back to Taffy. Willie Fry and others all liked Taffy, but found his naive and excessive patriotism a little embarrassing.

[Ginger.]

Originally Posted by alex_revell

Going back to Taffy. Willie Fry and others all liked Taffy, but found his naive and excessive patriotism a little embarrassing.

Love it mesen!

Taffy, rightly observed, in 'Tiger Squadron' that the Hun yellow nosed bastards hit the silk before a shot was fired on encountering 74 Squadron's Spits... the bully well and truly given a traditional bloody nose!

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hello,

When it comes to music and all, Louis A. IS god ... unless i completely misunderstood all of the above

Regarding the question whether Voss was able to withdraw from the battle ... and regarding my profound knowledge ... i do not know it lol.
I guess i will instantly be "shot down" after posting the following ... maybe you can correct me before the kill ..

Tales of hearsay ..

From the Fokker F1's capabilities it may well be he was able to at least temporarily withdraw vertically, from the battle. I also believe (only my opinion) that he chose to remain in the fight, certainly not to commit suicide but indeed believing he would be able to make his stand.

He put holes in almost all SE5s, he had a superior plane (at least in terms of manouverability), he had (temporarily) help from Menckhoff, and only maybe he thought there would be other german planes in the vicinity to help.

What was on with his own squadron he started with ? Did he leave them behind, did they turn away, where were they ? For what i had read he did not initially start on a "lone wolf" mission ?

It is said he had some wild drinking the evening before, but the mission he was killed in took place in the evening of the next day. So did he suffer from a hangover, was he still drunk, was he tired, did he sleep before etc.etc. ?

Then from another point of view - there were a lot of SE5as .. so even had he withdrawn himself from the fight vertically, would he really have had a chance to escape ? I mean he would have had finally to fly straight to the east, to leave the scene. So some british planes remaining at altitude, and the others flying away to climb, but keeping Voss and his course in sight, to come back at higher altutude with a higher speed than the F1.. all speculation ..

Guess i'll have to buy this book ..


Greetings,
Catfish

Mate,
Just starting to recover from this bloody sinus/cold/flu attack and will try to answer some of your questions to the best of my ability and continue the conversations maybe a little bit further than my friends Alex Revell and Greg Van have do so successfully so far.

- What was on with his own squadron he started with?
He initially left with two wingmen and both flying Pfalz D.III from Jasta 10 - when Werner opened the throttle on his 110 hp engine Triplane, it had just a little bit more get up and go than his mates had, and so as Ltn. Rüdenberg and Ltn. Bellen fell farther and farther behind they were unable to cover Voss tail when he started the tango with 60 Sqdn. After he tagged two of their aircraft, (Mac and the boys from 56 Sqdn.) jumped into the fray.

- Did he leave them behind, did they turn away, where were they? Apparently both Ltn. Rüdenberg and Ltn. Bellen, along with the rest of Voss' Ketten when they caught up, were kept in check by the Allied E.A in the area - so they all became spectators.

- It is said he had some wild drinking the evening before, but the mission he was killed in took place in the evening of the next day. So did he suffer from a hangover, was he still drunk, was he tired, did he sleep before etc.etc. ?
Pure Bunk. Time constraints rule it out. Get from Berlin, Germany to Marcke, Belgium for his morning patrol after a wee hour of the morning blitz with booz, knocked down his 48th victory - do a victory roll over the field - meet and greet his 2 brothers and do a photo op, and go up on an evening patrol at 6pm something , play tag with 60 and 56 Sqdn for 10 minutes before being shot down - dont think so.

- Then from another point of view - there were a lot of SE5as .. so even had he withdrawn himself from the fight vertically, would he really have had a chance to escape ?
Remember there were cloud cover at 9,000 feet and cloud cover at 1,000 feet. you know those fluffy white, play hide and seek with - the possibility was there and Voss knew some fancy get-out-of-jail-tricks to scoot if he had wanted to. If you get a chance to read anything from: Capt Arthur Stanley Gould Lee (7 Victories)
Major Edward Corringham "Mick" Mannock (61 Victories)
McCudden, Rhys Davids, Barlow, Muspratt, Cronyn, Hoidge, Maybery, Childlaw-Roberts and Bowman, etc

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

-

[Baron Von Quinnthar]

ok we all know Voss got into a turning fight with at least 7-9 SE.5's or as some sources quote 9 spads. What I would like more info onor theorizing on is if Voss's F.1 had sustained damage during the fight turning from each head on pass to the next imagine if he was'nt wounded he may sustained some serious damage to the aircraft. I think He flew into the battle not fully understanding the odds, it quickly got out of hand and He flew by the seat of his pants for as long as he could.e maybe got wounded or had serious damage done to some of the flight controls of his aircraft. He then chose to try and get away , which was then majorly hampered by the damage plus also the inferior dive speed potential or the F.1 compared to the SE.5's or maybe Spads. I would like to know if he got shot down fleeing or in a head on pass or had been stuck on the tail of a allied plane trying to get a kill?does anyone know this major part of this grave encounter.His pane was described as hitting the ground and turning into powder. This suggest he was shot from behind eithe fleeing or turning whilst still engaged.

[Tim West]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Quinnthar

ok we all know Voss got into a turning fight with at least 7-9 SE.5's or as some sources quote 9 spads. What I would like more info onor theorizing on is if Voss's F.1 had sustained damage during the fight turning from each head on pass to the next imagine if he was'nt wounded he may sustained some serious damage to the aircraft. I think He flew into the battle not fully understanding the odds, it quickly got out of hand and He flew by the seat of his pants for as long as he could.e maybe got wounded or had serious damage done to some of the flight controls of his aircraft. He then chose to try and get away , which was then majorly hampered by the damage plus also the inferior dive speed potential or the F.1 compared to the SE.5's or maybe Spads. I would like to know if he got shot down fleeing or in a head on pass or had been stuck on the tail of a allied plane trying to get a kill?does anyone know this major part of this grave encounter.His pane was described as hitting the ground and turning into powder. This suggest he was shot from behind eithe fleeing or turning whilst still engaged.

56 was flying SPADS now?

....and no doubt the cowling was yellow too

[bristol scout]

And the rudder.......