Lt. Barlow's 25 Sept 1917 shootdown #3 for the day

tcrean7828 · 10 September 2009, 11:47 PM

Mates,
Here is a mystery for someone to try and figure out?

The info presented thus far for Lt. Barlow's 25 Sept 1917 shootdown is:

Victory #15: 25 Sep 1917 1740 56 S.E.5 (B511) Albatros D.V (DESF) Houthoulst Forest - Pilot Oblt. Weigand

- Jasta 10

Victory #16: 25 Sep 1917 1740 56 S.E.5 (B511) Pfalz D.III (DESF) Houthoulst Forest - Pilot Unteroffizer

Werkmeister -Jasta 10

Victory #17: 25 Sep 1917 1740 56 S.E.5 (B511) Pfalz D.III (DES) Houthoulst Forest - Pilot = Unknown - Unit = Unknown

Shot down three in 3 minutes -‘Brief Glory: The life of

Arthur Rhys Davids DSC MC and bar’ by Alex Revell – pg 175 ; 'Aerodrome.com'

1. Albatros D.V - head-on - went down in pieces and finally burst into flames.
2. Pfalz D.III - went down in a slow spin and crashed at Stampkot.
3. Albatros D.V (Pfalz D.III) quick burst before zooming away. - It was sufficient. The Albatros

continued to dive and was seen by Bowman to crash half a mile from the north-west corner of Houthulst Forest.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

tcrean7828 · 11 September 2009, 01:38 AM

Mates,
I have a notation that all three shootdowns came from Jasta 10? But who!

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

JoaoMVM · 11 September 2009, 02:11 AM

Hey guys!

In my notes i have that the first was Obltn Ernst Weigand (killed), the second was Uffz August Werkmeister (seriously wounded), and the second was Ltn Friedrich Rudenberg (lightly injured), all from Jasta 10. They were flying together on a 3 man patrol from Jasta 10 led by Weigand, 2 days after

Werner Voss´s loss. Crummy 2 days for Jasta 10!

Regards
Joao

alex_revell · 11 September 2009, 05:08 AM

Tom,
Not sure what the mystery is.
Alex

tcrean7828 · 11 September 2009, 03:01 PM

Mates,
Thanks for the info, just haven't seen where Rüdenberg was one of the pilots shot down that day and the story behind it - thats all.

I have reference that he confirmed both Obltn Ernst Weigand and Uffz August Werkmeister shootdown's and his admiration for the English pilot who did it so swiftly.

JoaoMVM: where did you find your info, as I have looked at my notes from ‘Over the Front Vol.16-2001-Summer Issue No.2’ by Dov Gavish, PhD and Dieter H.M. Groschel, M.D – pg 120;‘juedische-geschichte.de’- Jüdische Geschich_Friedrich Rüdenberg; correspondence with Mrs. Elisheva Litan nee Rudenberg sister from Israel; '

The Jasta War Chronology' by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven - pg 102; 'The Jasta Pilots' by Norman Franks, Frank Bailey and Rick Duiven - pg 246 .

Thanks again for the info.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

P.S. This cold/flu has got me sicker than a dog should be.

R Gannon · 11 September 2009, 06:54 PM

Tom

Its that problem with surviving German record which tends to note only shoot downs that resulted in death, wounding or injury. I'm sure if the full Js 10 KTB ever came to light we would know whom.

Its like; who was the pilot of the blue tailed Js 11 Tripe shot down during MvR's last dogfight? Clearly the pilot walked away uninjured.

There's lots of these and as a result of my research I don't buy for one moment the old Patrick Kennedy mud slinging (MID column OTF in 90's) that British & Dominion pilots were making it up (with notable exception of Bishop). Though it is clear there are some in our fraternity who have seized upon that poisoned perception.

Cheers Russ

alex_revell · 12 September 2009, 02:17 AM

Tom,
In your original post you say/imply that in Brief Glory I say that Barlow achieved these victories in three minutes. This is not correct. What I actually wrote was 'a matter of minutes'. It's very bad practise to quote incorrectly. Hope you're more careful in your Voss book.

JoaoMVM · 12 September 2009, 03:58 AM

Russ

Concerning Richtofens last flight i read Joachim Wolffs notes about that fight and it seems that, as he was watching Richtofen drift into allied lines in pursuit of

Wilfrid May, he was attacked by a Camel and was forced to evade this attack wich promptly put 20 bullets into his Tripe. Maybe the pilot of the Camel(Francis Mellersh?) claimed Wolffs Triplane has he did hit him and he probably dived away in escape.

Regards Joao

tcrean7828 · 12 September 2009, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alex_revell

Tom,
In your original post you say/imply that in Brief Glory I say that Barlow achieved these victories in three minutes. This is not correct. What I actually wrote was 'a matter of minutes'. It's very bad practise to quote incorrectly. Hope you're more careful in your Voss book.

Alex,
Quite right - a bow to your correction. In my book, it is quoted correctly - pg 175 of your book.

Thanks for shinning the light, I tend to forget while here on the 'dome and I am happy to find folks to set me straight - the 3 minutes came from memory and that the time notation in Barlow's combat reports indicate general time not exact.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

R Gannon · 14 September 2009, 10:15 PM

Joao

Although this thread is supposed to deal with

Leonard Barlow's 'hat trick' on 25 Sep 17 - I will offer this re the 21 Apr 18 fight.

A very comprehensive compilation of data re the fight was aird in OTF Vol 2 & 7 - German accounts & 209 Sqn Combat reports. It is also a pity that so few have seen or had access to CEW Bean's Appendix in Vol IV of his AEF history.

MvR clearly departed on patrol with HJ Wolff, Karjus, Scholtz, WvR, Wenzl & Weiss. As I read it Wenzl & Wolff flew lower patrol whilst MvR led others on upper patrol - probably 1000ft behind and above.

Wenzl & Wiess attacked in turn the 3 AFC pair of RE8's 1040 & 1045 and were driven off by determined fire of observers - due to fog of war 3 AFC later reported the pair were attacked by 4 Tripes. Notwithstanding Weiss recorded that he had control cable shot through and quit fight.

At 1045 seven Camels of 209 attacked Wenzl & Weiss whereupon MvR led upper patrol down into fray. I go along with long standing assessment that May engaged WvR and latter quickly quit fight. As is well known Mellersh shot down and indeed followed down a blue tailed Tripe, reporting it as crashed near Cerisy. HJ Wolff wounded McKenzie and damaged his Camel - however I do feel McKenzie is correct in stating that he sent his assailant down apparently OOC - as noted HJ Wolff would record over twenty hits.

As we all know to ad nauseum, MvR then chased after fleeing May and Brown dived to aid firing inneffective burst and overshooting. MvR then pursued May for 3 km along Somme valley taking just 60 seconds before comming under AA Lewis fire from 52 Bty AFA whereupon he turned and began to climb - at this point Sgt Popkin of 24 MG Coy fired fatal burst - DR1 425/17 healing over left and crashed into a wurzel heap with ENGINE FULL ON only 2-3 seconds later (anything else is misleading conjecture). Six men along with intelligence officer Fraser then ran up to wreck and removed the already dead MvR and placed him on ground.

On return to Cappy, HJ Wolff reported MvR down and Bodenchatz ordered a mission to assertain MvR's fate - Only Wenzl, Karjus & WvR are recorded as taking to the air - clearly as both Wolff's & Weiss's Tripes were damaged. This raises question of Scholtz - the Wolff letter to

LvR, as we now see it, has it that Scholtz was fighting with Js 5 further east over Sailly le Sec - this sounds a little unconvincing to me - also he is not recorded as being in second flight which in my mind suggests that either HJ Wolff, or a later editor, is being a little economical with the truth in regards Scholtz part in the fight. For my money, he was likely pilot of blue tailed Tripe.

Cheers Russ