James McCudden VS Ernst Udet

[stephen]

Gee whiz... you guys are so serious. Don't forget, we all got interested in this stuff after reading Quentin Reynolds and Snoopy comic strips.

I thought the whole fantasy scenario was under equal conditions with the fight over the front. At the risk of having some fun on this thread, the theory was that neither would be able to shoot the other down in a "fair" fight (yes, I know, there's no such thing).

But eventually Mac's SE would lose altitude quicker than the DVII, which could hold its altitude better. That would put Udet in a superior position and rather than get pasted, Mac would use his SE's speed and bolt for home.

Hence, Udet in a decision rather than a knockout.

I'm going to go read a really serious book now. Or maybe a medical journal. Hey, I know... today's obituaries!

[R Gannon]

For those who are interested re 22 Aug 18 this is what is written on the combined 24 Sqn CR:

SE5's B8422, C1813, C6918, C6967.

Maricourt, OP, 3,000ft

Remarks on Hostyle Aircraft - 1 EKB, 7 Fokker Biplanes,

'Capt Hazell dived on the balloon thinking the EA would not come down and put 150 - 200 rounds Buckingham in 2 bursts down to 10 yards first at nose and then from rear to front. The EKB went down in flames after the second dive and one observer was seen to get clear.

Capt Hazell was then seen home by the EA who shot his tank, longerons, and propellor to pieces.

Lt Southey tried to get onto a red EA which was attacking Capt Hazell but could not do any good. He then attacked a grey one and fired 30 rounds at 50 yards range and this EA retired.

Lt Crossen got onto the tail of blue grey EA firing 100 rds and chased him until he landed in a field near CURLU and ran into a hedge.

Lt Crossen & Lt Stirling each had some indecisive fighting and the latter then separated a red EA at 1,500 feet and fired 150 rounds at close range and the EA went down vertically out of a turn. The result could not be observed as other EA then attacked Lt Stirling. ......'

Three points - Udet again was atempting to an attack an aircraft that was distracted. His 1930 account of firing phophorus rounds which scared off attackers is pure gloss. His 1930 account also notes a Fok DVII crashing in flames - undoubtedly the EA downed by Crossen - yet another of what I call the 'hidden losses'.

I think Hazell & Udet had already crossed swords on 14 Aug 18

Again I'll quote from combined 24 Sqn CR

Location: Nesle 8.0 am 15,000 feet.
Hostile Aircraft - 15 to 20 Fokker Biplanes

'All the EA were above our formation and in two groups. About 8 came down on our lower flight and the remainder dropped their noses slightly and opened fire at long range on on our upper two flights. A general engagement ensued in which our pilots were unable to do much owning to the enemy's superiority in height. Capt Hazell got onto a red EA with a streamer on its tail, which had just shot Lt Hellet's tanks through, and opened fire at long range to frighten him off Lt Hellet, before closing to 40 yards and firing 200 rounds in all. The EA stalled over on its back and was watched for 4,000 feet or more by several of our pilots going down very steeply upside down...'

The CR goes on to relate that both Crossen & Stirling had indecisive attacks on EA which cleared east. Whilst Lt Blair combined with a Camel for an attack on a Rumpler which also dived away to east.

Again the tactical piont is that Udet was trying to avoid a dogfight indulging in the dive & zoom method hoping to wing an SE which could then be driven down. And then when attacked himself he to use an LvR ism - 'he went down stairs'. Natuarally the SE's would not follow any distance over.

All a far cry from these romantic notions of one on one encounters.

Cheers Russ.

Some more fun - when MvR downed Hawker over the German side, he was flying a two gun 160 hp machine against a one gun 100 hp DH2. How would MvR have gone if he was say, he caught flying a one gun 100hp Fokker EIII over British lines by say Hawker on a prototype 150 hp two gun SE5?

Cheers Russ

[Nacho]

Originally Posted by stephen

Gee whiz... you guys are so serious. Don't forget, we all got interested in this stuff after reading Quentin Reynolds and Snoopy comic strips.

I thought the whole fantasy scenario was under equal conditions with the fight over the front. At the risk of having some fun on this thread, the theory was that neither would be able to shoot the other down in a "fair" fight (yes, I know, there's no such thing).

But eventually Mac's SE would lose altitude quicker than the DVII, which could hold its altitude better. That would put Udet in a superior position and rather than get pasted, Mac would use his SE's speed and bolt for home.

Hence, Udet in a decision rather than a knockout.

I'm going to go read a really serious book now. Or maybe a medical journal. Hey, I know... today's obituaries!

Thank you Stephen. You're probraly the only one who has answered the question they way I would want people to.

[Brez]

Sorry

I didn't get it.

Can I have another go?

Hmm lets see, er lets say Frank Luke vs Herman Goering.

Herman wins coz he's flying a DVII.

How am I doing?

[MiG-77]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Some more fun - when MvR downed Hawker over the German side, he was flying a two gun 160 hp machine against a one gun 100 hp DH2. How would MvR have gone if he was say, he caught flying a one gun 100hp Fokker EIII over British lines by say Hawker on a prototype 150 hp two gun SE5?

Cheers Russ

Same as how MvR fared against 200-220hp SE5a/SPAD XIII in his 110hp Fokker Dr.1?

[R Gannon]

Mig 77

As a student of dogfights - MvR only scored two 'certain' victories against SE5's. One on 30 Nov 17 (flying a DV) and the other on 24 Mar 18 - in the latter at head of 25 of his much vaunted JG 1 against 9 SE5's - his was the only success!!!! In both cases SE's were from 41 Sqn and in both cases they made claims in return. Claims I would not discount.

For those who are interested. I thought for a bit of hype free illumination I would provide a brief over views / circumstances of Udet's victories against British aircraft. I'm sure it will prove interesting.

Enthusiasts will know Udet after serving with Jasta 15 was posted to Jasta 37 on the British sector in Aug 17.

His first claim came on 12 Aug 17 (misdated as 13 Aug in 'Fall of an Eagle') in a combat with 5 Nieuports of 40 Sqn - in this a Lt WD Cullen was forced down on the German side and taken prisoner - his fellow pilots under Capt Keen made 3 claims in return. Credit however was given to Uffz Helligers of Jasta 30 - indicating the 5 Nieuports flying an OP over the German side, had not only fought two Jasta's, but that Cullen had been driven down by two pilots - this was a common occurance. In 'Fall of an Eagle' there is a photo of Udet and his SF Obln Grasshoff standing in front of a 40 Sqn Nieuport which can only be that of Cullen.

His first success came on 14 Aug 17. In this a 5 strong bombing formation of 25 Sqn (DH4's) were attacked by upwards of 20 EA scouts on the return leg - Udet clearly dived on one 'Bristol' (sic) in a hit and run attack. The 'Bristol' began to smoke and then dived after Udet whereupon it broke up!!! This was DH4 A2159 - crew mia / kia. Udet's 7th Luftseige.

Udet's 8th Luftseige on 15 Aug 17 - his victim 43 Sqn Sopwith Strutter A8294.
43 Sqn's Strutters were sent off on low Special Missions in support of Canadian Corps attack (and capture) of Hill 70. According to Udet the Strutter flew low over his airfield Moncheaux in a straffing run - Udet imediately took to air and pursued 15km back to front line where the Strutter crashed just short of Front lines. Crew kia.

9th Lufseige was one of 6 DH4's from 55 Sqn (not 27 Sqn or 57 Sqn as some sources) on bombing raid deep in German lines to Raisnes. Js 37 went off in pursuit. it would appear that A7566 fired a green flair indicating engine failure and went down clearly with no option but to force land German side. Udet apparently attacked this lame duck killing the observer. According to Udet the Australian pilot (Lt Davyes) made poor impression, claiming he was a braggart, but one wonders if Davyes had actually objected about being shot up when he was clearly going to have to land - of course by shooting the DH4 up, Udet would get credit for victory!

10th - was either DH5 a9410 or A9409 who were both lost over German side on 17 Sep 17 when assailed by both Jasta 30 & Jasta 37.

I'll post more.

[JFM]

Some more fun - when MvR downed Hawker over the German side, he was flying a two gun 160 hp machine against a one gun 100 hp DH2. How would MvR have gone if he was say, he caught flying a one gun 100hp Fokker EIII over British lines by say Hawker on a prototype 150 hp two gun SE5?

Cheers Russ

Hi, Russ,

Who knows? But if MvR was fixated on distant targets and never saw the attacking planes in the first place, just as Hawker didn't on 28 Nov 1916, it might go as badly for MvR as it did for Hawker. Much is made about Hawker's machine being of inferior performance but if you never see the other guy coming to attack it doesn't matter what you are flying. It's to Hawker's great credit that he evaded MvR for as long as he did after Jasta 2's initial dive.

[MiG-77]

Originally Posted by RussGannon

Mig 77

As a student of dogfights - MvR only scored two 'certain' victories against SE5's. One on 30 Nov 17 (flying a DV) and the other on 24 Mar 18 - in the latter at head of 25 of his much vaunted JG 1 against 9 SE5's - his was the only success!!!! In both cases SE's were from 41 Sqn and in both cases they made claims in return. Claims I would not discount.

Would that be because those planes were much faster and they could always choose to run away? Excatly like MvR could have done against Hawker DH2, but didnt. Also MvR triplane only adventage was turn perfomance, just like Hawker DH2.

Anyway point was that comparing plane HPs is not that good measure when talking about pilot skills. Or you would have to give much more credit to german pilots in late war as they were "outengined" (faster planes could disengage at will).

[R Gannon]

Mig 77

I'll adress MvR v SE5's in a later post - but be sure they never ran away.

Jim

It was just a what if to get people thinking. As I see it odds were rather stacked in MvR's favour and I believe he was always careful to keep it that way - I look on him more as an accomplished and effective hunter than a 'gun' air fighter.

Onwards with Udet.

11th Luftseige on 24 Sep 17 - big question mark here - would seem to have claimed a 'pusher' - but none in use anymore in daylight hours also no loss of any type at location & loc.

# 12 & 13 on 28 Sep 17 - these were two Camels of 43 Sqn B6209 went down in flames German side and B2366 (Capt Wynn) engine shot up FTL British side. Apparently Udet was able to creep up unseen on 43 Sqn's 5 man patrol despatching a rear one in flames from 30m and then shooting down the leader (Wynn). All it would be claimed in 20 seconds. Pointedly however Wynn claimed an Alb Sct OOC in return; suggesting the engagement was not as one sided as Udet would later paint. It is also worth noting 43 Sqn had only just swaped their Sopwith Struuters for Camels and probably pilots were not as vigilant as they should have been - observers had previously looked to rear. But still this is one of Udet's most effective engagements.

# 14 - 18 Oct 17 - Lt Gilbert 56 Sqn already discussed. However raises an interesting point Fall of an Eagle misdates this fight as 1 Oct 17 and then goes on to relate how Udet helped cfm Js 17 ace Ostv Buckler's 16th vic. Going on to further state that during the afternoon Udet attacked but was himself shot down by an RE8 - crashing in trenches area of Diximude. Buckler's 16th was actually obtained on 11 Oct 17 - all a little confusing, but as a purist I would love to be able to identify the successful RE8 crew.

On 7 Nov 17 Udet became Staffelfuhrer of Js 37.

#15 - 28 Nov 17 - credited with a DH5 - jenseits (other side) which Udet would claim 'broke up' but only loss was 32 Sqn's Lt Francis who was wia but made safe return.

# 16 - 5 Dec 17 - an SE5! again Jenseits. Pointedly there are two other like German 'confirmed' claims at same loc & time - by Ltn Muller of Js 2 & a FAA 211 crew. Now the only realistic contender for all three is the 70 Sqn Camel of 2Lt Runnels-Moss. He had been the last man in a patrol which was attacked by two Alb Scouts (Udet & Muller?) and was sent down in flames crashing just inside Brit lines. 2Lt Quigley of same patrol turned on the attackers and drove one down from 9,000 to 5,000ft where he left it going down vertical and smoking - this was cfm by Lt Hobson!

Whislt this is purely speculation : I rather like the photo in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' of a rather dishevelled Udet sitting in cotpit of his Alb DV 'Lo' with bullet holes (apparently 21 in all), with caption '15 min after having his tail feathers plucked.'

#17 - 6 Jan 18 - Nieuport - at same time & loc a six strong 29 Sqn patrol was dived on by 2 Alb Scouts and saw Capt Rusby wia but able to make safe return in B6831. Capt Payne crashed one of the attackers NE of Staden whilst the other was driven east.

Indeed there is a patern late 17 early 18 of German scouts (often in pairs) diving 'hit and run style' on British formation just as they were about to re-cross lines. My suspiscion being that Jasta pilots at this stage were gambling on the 'Sopwiths' to be low on both fuel & ammo and would not be in good position to retaliate. Although I don't think this was part of planning, but when successful the victims often burst into flames - a product I think of having little fuel in tanks that lead more readily to ignition.

# 18 - 28 Jan 18 - Spowith - Jenseits - another question mark claim.

# 19 - 29 Jan 18 - Bristol - Jenseits - again another question mark claim.

More to follow.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Jim

This is how I read the fateful fight on 23 Nov 16:

Whilst on OP the newly arrived 24 Sqn OC, Maj Hawker led Capt Andrews & Lt Saundby of A Flight in the pursuit of 2 'Rolands' flying at 2000m north east to towards region of Achiet le Grand. Capt Andrews however was concerned, as this was 6km behind German lines and there were two formations of HA above. Just as Hawker dived to attack one of these formations - Jasta 2 -came down on the the three DH2's. Now setting aside the gloss of MvR's later account, his CR states: 'I attacked with two other planes, a Vickers one seater at 3,000m altitude...' From his CR we can identify these as Ltn Wortmann & Ltn Collin. Two other Alb D's also attacked Lt Saundby. Now Capt Andrews flew to Hawker's aid and drove off one of the attackers, but in turn was assailed by another EA scout, which shot his engine about forcing him to make for British lines. At the same time Saundby who had shook of his two attackers (who made of to east) went to Andrew's aid and apparently sent his assailant down OOC. I think it would be reasonable to identify these particular two EA as being flown by Wortmann & Collin. This now left MvR as Hawker's sole assalant; who in a 3 to 5 min 'curve fight' drove his DH 2 down to 500m. Hawker in his 100hp one gunned DH2 was now some 5-6 km behind German lines with a 160hp two gunned enemy scout above him driving him down. He had no alternative to break for British lines allowing MvR a straight shot - MvR fire taking effect after 600 rounds.

It is also worth noting that 'Rolands' is often the British pilots 'best guess' for the new Alb D scouts at this juncture - possibly suggesting that the two 'Roland's' were the 'lower flight' of the Js 2 combat mission - acting as bait to draw the DH2's deeper into German territory and deeper into trouble - the casualty return does in fact state Hawker was lost in a combat with 8 HA!

As I see it, this was nothing more than cold calculating 'scientific fighting' on the part of MvR and Js 2 - aided by Hawker's lack of recent operational experience. Upwards of 8 superior fighters luring and then assailing 3 inferior fighter types into a fight with a height disadvantage well inside German lines.

Cheers Russ