James McCudden VS Ernst Udet

[RussGannon]

Udet's 20th lufsteige came on 18 Feb 18 - another Sopwth-1 jenseits.

Unlike his 18th & 19th jenseits claims this has some meat on it.
A Flight of 10 Naval engaged 5 Alb scouts - Udets states he shot his opponent down from below sparking a hot 5 minute dogfight. His victim was N6347 which crashed a W/O in British lines (just inside) the badly wounded pilot FSL Burr dying of wounds on 22 Feb 18. In return FSL Manuel & FSL Hall both claimed to have crashed Alb scouts.

9 Mar 18 - Udet has a zlg claim for a Camel - w of Houthem 1040GT - this would match a combat of 70 Sqn who claimed one in flames, two crashed & two OOC for no loss! Well nothing worth raising a casualty report. As I understand it the 70 SRB was lost, which might confirm one of their number might have made a forced landing.

Claims 15 to 20 were all 'jenseits' claims - Allied planes who seemingly went down over British side following fights close to German front lines - Udets seven claims demonstrate that 'Jenseits' claims were no more reliable in regards 'hard kills' than British claims - the vast bulk of which were made over German aircraft over (often well over) German lines. Undoubtedly made in good faith by both sides, but due to various fog of war issues, often times did not result in 'hard kills'. Or as in case of vic #16 saw more than one pilot receive credit for one actual loss.

18 Mar 18 saw Js 37 involved in the great air battle over Le Chateau; the 9 2-seaters pursued by Udet being 5 Naval's hard pressed DH4's - Udet being shot down by one of them - his raidiator shot through.

Following this fight Udet was posted in to command Jasta 11 as of 25 Mar 18. His later books would claim that he flew his first patrol on 27 Mar 18 along side MvR resulting in his 21st luftseige - however MvR's CR for 26 Mar shows Udet was part of this earlier mission. On 27 Mar, Udet would claim a RE8 which he would claim broke up but only loss loc & time frame was a 42 Sqn RE8 which FTL, moreover there are two other good claims by Js 6 & Js 49 which might also fit this loss. Other details of his later accounting of this fight also fit into the realm of gloss.

Vic # 22 was secured on 28 Mar 18 when Udet led Js 11 on his own. Along with scouts from Js 4, Js 5 & Js 56 they decended on 9 Camels of 43 Sqn engaged, like the rest of RFC that day, on low bombing mission. Udet & Gussmann together engaged C8224 one of five Camels that failed to return. As is well known Udet was un-nerved by the encounter - Massdorp continually flew at Udet head on. Interestingly the 43 Sqn pilots would claim 5 EA in return - all Alb scouts - no note of Tripes!!! von der Osten SF of Js 4 was pilot of one of them.

Vic # 23 - again a low flying Camel of 43 Sqn - C8247. The low bombing patrol recording that they were attacked by 7 EA (Triplanes & scouts). Indeed they would claim four of them - one being awarded to Lewis - Udet's victim.

A consistant ear problem saw Udet hospitalised and ultimately posted out of Js 11.

Cheers Russ

[steven brown]

Russ,
Excellent and informative posts. Thanks for taking the time. I've been involved with family things lately and have not been able to post or even read much. I will be back.

[RussGannon]

Steven

Good to hear you like this information.
Here is some more:

As is well known Udet returned to the fray as staffelfuhrer of Jasta 4. During the summer they along with the rest of JG I were engaged on the French sector. Here Udet added 22 victories to his score - however as French sector is not my specialty I cannot provide any additional material in regards nature of these victories.

8 Aug 18 was the 'Black Day' of the German Army when British Fourth Army crunched over the defences of German 2 ARMEE. This saw JG I hurriedly flown north to the battle area.

vic # 45 - this was most likely over Lt Touchstone USAS serving with 1 Sqn RAF. He was part of a 5 strong low bombing mission led by Capt Allen to area of Peronne. Two SE5's dropped out with engine trouble leaving only three. Capt Allen saw 6 DVII's at 1615 above them over Cappy, but these disappeared into some clouds. At this point the remaing SE's became separated and on return it was found that Touchstone was missing (POW). Clearly Udet picked off the lone low flyer. However that said, there is also a good claim same area & time for an SE5 by Vfw Juncke of Js 52 - and as Touchstone is the only viable loss for either claim, it may be both had a hand in his demise. Both pilots submitting separate claims through different Kofl's - Kofl 2 for Udet & Kofl 6 for Juncke.

vic # 26 - again 1 Sqn - Capt KC Mills (4 vic) mia / kia
Mills had led a later 7 strong low bomb of Peronne area which saw bombs dropped on military huts, bridges, rolling stock and an aerodrome east of Peronne. Returning pilots also reported seeing 10 Fokkers & 17 2-seaters on an aerodrome SE of Cappy. The low flying SE's having come under attacke from Fokkers. Lt Pegg would claim of in flames whilst Lt Smart, Lt Newman & Lt Arning were each chased by a pair of Fokkers each, back to British lines. Mills however failed to return and one can deduce from Udet's accounts that he made two straffing runs on JG I aircraft bunched up on the aerodrome SE of Cappy - Udet getting airbourne and shooting Mills down from below - SE bearing penants and pilot killed.

vic #47 - Lt Taylor POW of 54 Sqn on Camel D9481. Udet would claim that he attacked a pair of low flying Camels, one which made off west and the other which crashed after colliding with Udet's Fokker. He would further claim they were dropping surrender leaflets! Taylor in fact had led (his flight commander Gonne had been lost on earlier mission) a 6 strong low bomb which was attacked by 10 Fokkers - Taylor being driven down & taken POW. Apparently he had no recollection of any collision. That Udet was not alone, as one might deduce from his later accounting, is confirmed by the fact that Js 4 pilots Maushanke & Reinhardt witnessed the victory - Udet's original CR is preserved in Bodenchatz's original JIHF.

9 Aug 18

vic # 48 - 'Sopwith' - time & loc of claim match a combat by 60 Sqn but no losses or indeed any SE with any serious damage. The 60 Sqn pilots claimed 5 DVII's in this fight. Pointedly Lt Reinhardt of Js 4 is recorded as missing from a patrol on this date - forced down wounded.

vic # 49 - another 'Sopwith' - this was most likely 65 Sqn - Sinclair MIA POW - again missing from a low bomb.

10 Aug 18

vic # 50 - 'Sopwith' - probably 3 Sqn McIntosh MIA KIA Camel B7399.

3 Sqn patrol had attacked 6 DVII's (Js 19?) when attacked in turn by 13 DVII's. 3 Sqn pilots made 6 claims during fight including a 'red' EA OOC to Lt Hughes. McIntosh was last seen attacking an EA.

vic # 51 - 'Sopwith' - probably Lt Wood (US) of 201 Sqn POW DOW
during a combat with 10 DVII's - 201 Sqn claimed one OOC in return.

Cheers Russ

[RussGannon]

Again for anyone who is interested in the air war free of the mythology:

Udet's 52 Luftseige - 11 Aug 18 - 98 Sqn on bombing mission either D3097 or D1321 both lost to JG I - claims by Udet & LvR.

#53 12 Aug 18 - SE5 - 40 Sqn either Capt Hind (7 vic) MIA /KIA or Lt Wood POW. Part of a 12 strong 40 Sqn patrol that found themselves below upwards of 50 EA! These dived & zoomed on the SE's until a Camel squadron intervened alowing formation to get back to British lines - the USAS pair of Poler & Landis both making claims against the attackers. I suspect the other SE5 was claimed by Konnecke of Js 5 though type, loc & time details are lacking.

# 54 14 Aug 18 - Bristol - 88 Sqn C852 crew POW following a combat with 11 EA - 2 claims by 88 Sqn crews.

# 55 - 15 Aug 18 - 'Sopwith Camel' - the claim looks to match a combat of 46 Sqn resultng in 3 claims but no loss (possible that a machine may have rtn shot about but not enough to be SOS).

#56 - 16 Aug 18 - 'SPAD' popular Udet literature gives this as S/L Cael POW of Esc 3. It would seem that Cael identified Udet as his victor in a 1919 article in 'Le Vie Aerienne'. That the German pilot had visited him on his hospital bed. Interestingly there were 7 other SPAD claims by German pilots on this date - with Cael, being as far as I know, the only recorded SPAD loss!!! It is worth noting that at exactly the same time & location as Udet's claim (which was well inside the British area of ops) I have it recorded that an 80 Sqn Camel patrol was being harried by two formations of higher flying Fokkers and that one was shot down and crashed by Capt Falkenberg of 84 Sqn who intervened and intercepted one of the Fokkers attempting a dive & zoom attack!!!! No losses to either 80 sqn or 84 Sqn.

# 57 - 21 Aug 18 - 'SE5' Jenseits - possibly Lt Reid of 84 Sqn who FTL OK on this date.

# 58 - 21 Aug 18 - Sopwith or Dolphin - looks to match a combat of 87 Sqn (Dolphins) who recorded a combat with 8 red nosed EA - but without any loss.

# 59 - 'Sopwith Camel' - probably a 2Lt Tupman of 80 Sqn who went missing from a practice flight!

More to follow.

Cheers Russ

[JoaoMVM]

Russ

Regarding Udets RE8 claim of 27 March 1918, isnt it possible it could be one of the two 16 Sqdn crews killed in action on this day? Udets description of the fight says he attacked it head on and it exploded in mid-air, so its doubtful they were forced to land Was 16 Sqdn anywhere near the area of the fight? I always believed so.

Anyway great description of Udets victories, many details i didnt know about, not being referred in his book "Mein fliegerleben"

Regards

Joao

[RussGannon]

Joao

16 Sqn? I simply cull this stuff off my log where I try to be careful in regards who was shooting at who- will have another look and get back.

Back to Udet.

His final two victories were claimed on 26 Sep 18 in an attack on a seven strong bombing formation from the RAF's 99 Sqn of the Independant Force. An air battle that is somewhat problematic. Problems which have been looked at in Grub St's BABS & ATL. The problem being that contrary to image presented by Udet in 'Ace of the Iron Cross' - his 6 Strong Js 4 were not the only participants. Jasta 3, Jasta 77 & Jasta 15 (from JGII) were also involved - so too a five striong formation of 104 Sqn RAF. 99 Sqn lost 5 machines, another FTL in Allied lines and only one made it back badly shot about. A 104 Sqn machine was also lost. There were howver 13 German claims - four by Js 4, four by Js 77, three by Js 3 and two by Js 15. Some of these were not accepted but which ones depends on the source. The problem as I see it being because the units came from different Kofl's - Js 4 & Js 15 being with Army Det C and Js 3 & Js 77 with 19 Armee. That is to say both Kofl's awarded the losses to their pilots.

Now 'Ace of Iron Cross' contains a copy of Udet's original CR with translation. This also contains a bevy of confirmation statements tacked on; stating a Red Fokker was seen to dispose of two of the DH9's. Some have used surviving examples like this to tout the thouroughness of the German claiming system. However I beg to differ and what we have is an example of a contested claim, where claimee's so to speak, try to sway the mediators so to speak. Indeed his CR is dated 29 sep 18 - three days after the combat. That said I do believe Udet accounted for two of the DH9's. And what we really have is a good example of the falibility of the German claiming system. That there clearly was little communications between Kofl's in regards confirmation of victories - other good examples are 6 Jun 17 & 18 Mar 18.

Summary

A close look at Udet's 34 'confirmed' claims against the British show that 10 were not in fact 'hard kills' whilst 4 others look to have other confirmed claimants. It is also noticable that Udet scored very few 'hard kills' in what one might term classic dog fights - lone ducks, low flyers, tail end charlies & a/c distracted in attacks on 2-seaters & balloons seem to be his most successful fare - and even with the BMW powered DVII - he still looks to have preferred dive & zoom tactics than actually mixing it. In short he was a successful exponent of 'scientific fighting'.

As to his 28 French / USAS claims - I can only go by Grub St corpus, but only 6 certain victims are identified. One is Lt Wanamaker POW of 27 Aero on 2 July 18 - apparently shot off tail of Lowenhardt - problem here is that there were in fact two 27 Aero losses this combat, but four 'confirmed' JG I claims - Udet's, plus two by Lowenhardt and one by Friedrichs (both Js 10).

As to question how would he go against McCudden? If ithe fight took place German side, I'd say it would end indecisive. If Mac was lucky to catch Udet over the British side - I think he would have entertained him in the 56 Sqn mess.

Cheers Russ

[Gregvan]

Hi Russ,

Thanks for supplying all this great information.

As for Udet practicing "scientific fighting", what's wrong with that? Sounds very much like what McCudden and other greats have promoted. Inflict the greatest damage possible on the enemy, while exposing yourself and your Staffel comrades to the least amount of risk.

American ace Ken Porter put it rather more bluntly: "If you found yourself in a fair fight, you f%#*ed up."

As for Udet's 10th victory, this was definitely 2/Lt. Robert Edward Taylor of 41 Sqdn in D.H.5 A 4905. Udet took several photos of the wreckage (the rudder and serial number are completely visible), and collected He also took one of Taylor's ID discs and his map and a small silver pocket mirror. Before anyone condemns him for souvenir taking, let me say this was pretty endemic to pilots on both sides. In the 1930's a Canadian journalist interviewed Udet, specifically asking about Roberts. Udet offered to return the identity disc, map and pocket mirror to Roberts' family (he also sent them photos of the wrecked DH 5), for "I shall be glad to return these articles to his relatives, for whom the possession of these must be of far greater value than to me." I don't know if that offer was ever taken up by Roberts' family.

In Volume 18 No. 3 (2003) of Over the Front we published a very detailed biography of Roberts by esteemed Canadian historian Stew Taylor, with Udet's own account of the dogfight from his combat report, etc, as well as photos from both sides of the lines. Since you're boycotting OtF, here's what Udet's combat report said about this combat:

"At 7:30 AM while flying Albatros D.V 4476/17 at a height of approximately 8500 feet, I sighted a British one-seater in the middle of a group of three enemy planes about one mile south of Izel. The sun was directly behind me. The enemy planes apparently did not see me at all. I attacked suddenly, holding my fire until within easy range. After almost the first burst, I saw that I had made a hit and that the plane was out of control. A moment later he crashed, striking near the road to Vitry.

"I circled twice over the wreckage but could see no movement. I was then forced to retire as the other two planes had maneuvered into position above me and were about to attack. Subsequently I learned that the pilot of the plane I had engaged was named Taylor and that he was a Lt. of the RFC. He had been instantly killed by a bullet through the heart. His machine was a de Havilland A9409 equipped with one Maxim Gun."

Udet was contacted by the Roberts family through the Directorate of Graves Registration and Enquiries in Berlin in 1931. In a reponse Udet added further information:

"Lt. Taylor and two comrades were each flying a DH5 one-seater...on patrol duty on the morning of the 17.9.17, about 7 o'clock, in the area east of Baileul, Gresnes, Fresnoy (all places west of Douai).

"I...was observing these three enemy pilots for some time (note: Stew Taylor says there were five DH5's led by Capt. G.H. Hall)....On reaching about 3,000 meters, I attacked these aeroplanes which were flying at about 2,700 meters. I attacked, contrary to the usual practice, from the front and flew with great speed at the nearest DH5 which broke (up) under my fire and dropped 900 meters south of Izel, on the west of the road leading to Vitry. A further D.H.5 was shot by Uffz. Liebert (Jasta 30) about 10 minutes later (D.H. 5 A9410, Lt. G.C. Holman, KIA)."

Greg

[Gregvan]

As for Udet in the summer of 1918, Peter Kilduff located a report in the Nachrichtenblatt der Luftstreitkräfte, (2 Jg., Nr. 30, 19 September 1918), in which a letter taken from a French POW (of a two-seater escadrille) was translated and reported in the 'Nachrichtenblatt" for German morale. I have no doubt that it refers to Udet, and is authentic.

"A comrade was attacked twice while at 5000 meters altitude and within our lines. The second time by a single Fokker which was painted red all over quite far behind out lines. (Over the Reims mountain forest, according to reports). Despite all manner of aerobatics by our pilot, who was the best in our squadron, the Fokker did not relent (from) 5000 to 3000 metres and fired his machine gun three times at our man from the somewhat great distance of 150-200 metres and out 30 holes into (our) crate. They had to land with the engine switched off because of a hit that emptied the fuel tank. The machine had to be dismantled (i.e. scrapped). The observer believed they were as good as shot down when he saw how this German sprang about him and shot up his crate. Furthermore, this red-painted machine has been talked about several times recently. In any event, in it sits a pilot equal to our Fonck."

Fonck, by the way, was another exponent of 'scientific fighting' in my opinion.

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi Russ,

Thanks for supplying all this great information.

As for Udet practicing "scientific fighting", what's wrong with that? Sounds very much like what McCudden and other greats have promoted. Inflict the greatest damage possible on the enemy, while exposing yourself and your Staffel comrades to the least amount of risk.

American ace Ken Porter put it rather more bluntly: "If you found yourself in a fair fight, you f%#*ed up."

Greg

Hi Greg,

I don't know about this "Scientific Fighting"(?).... It sounds an awful lot like Teutonic behavior to me!

HAPPY TRAILS, FOKKERJ

[steven brown]

Gentlemen,
I'm not really clear on what is precisely meant by the terms 'scientific fighting' and 'Teutonic fighting', but they seem to be intended to be
pejorative. It seems to me that the Germans, rightly or wrongly, fought a war of attrition, trying to wear the British down with steady losses while preserving their own force. They pursued this course in a professional manner, and although it obviously failed, it appears that they felt it was the only option they had. Against a timid foe it might have worked, but the British were anything but timid.