James McCudden VS Ernst Udet

[RussGannon]

Greg

Thanks for that info confirming Udet's 10th was 2Lt Taylor - via ST Taylor's OTF article - it will go straight into my log. I gather Udet must have also supplied copy of his CR - that makes three. I also don't doubt Udet was a very good flyer.

Nothing at all wrong with scientific fighting - all the really successful pilots on all sides employed it when they could. I'm just keen to pour water on these prevailling mythical notions about the air war. Notions of all conquering pilots & units and that all air combats were in some kind of neutral aerial arena along the Hollywood imagery of two formations meeting head on followed by swirling dogfight where the best pilots prevailed.

Fokker J

'Scientific fighting' was coined by VM Yeates in his immortal 'Winged Victory' It was a little more tactful than the terms like 'Hunnish Tactics' used by Brit & Dom pilots during the war. The notion alluding to the ancient Huns; who specialised in hit & run tactics rather than to be drawn into open battle with Roman Legions.

Joao

Checked my log - unlikely 16 Sqn - B3416 left at 1505 well after Udet & Obln Reinhard's (Js 6) claims - Albert 1150 & S Mourcout 1140 respectively. The only likely contender this area & time frame is 42 Sqn's B6528 - crew wia (clearly not broken up). I don't doubt Udet attacked an RE8 but it may be that due to fog of war issues he did not see results and a later inquiery of forward units noted wreckage of 16 Sqn's B3416 and the conclusion was drawn that this was Udet's RE8 - only a thought.

An interesting one for all

Now Jim Miller's handsome new tribute to MVR - Ace Profiles - Manfred von Richthofen - contains a piece by Udet c1929; in which he tells of a combat when flying with MvR against some Sopwith one seaters which saw MvR's Tripe hit in his syncro gear by one of the Sopwiths, which in turn saw MvR shoot off his prop necessitating a force landing in the crater field of the old Somme battlefield - ie somewhere near Albert.

Now in an earlier thread 'Could Brown have downed MvR' I speculated on MvR's alternating Tripe usage & corresponding Brit accounts that MvR might have been downed or at least returned with his Tripe shot about on several occasions: 18 Mar, 27 Mar, 2 Apr, 7 apr & 12 Apr 18.

Now if one does a little scratching it becomes apparent that Udet could have only flown with mvR on three occasions - 26 Mar, 27 mar and 6 Apr 18.

This in turn leads me to focus on 27 Mar 18 - where it would seem MvR flew three patrols:
The first on 127/17 saw him secure his 71st vic - 0900 a 73 Sqn Camel.

The second would appear to have been with Udet along with Just, Gussmann & Scholtz (upper patrol?) - this saw Udet claim that elusive RE8 whist Scholtz accounted for B1332 of 11 Sqn.

The last saw MvR using 477/17 and resulted in vics #72 (2 Sqn AWFk8) & #73 (79 Sqn Dolphin) 1630 & 1635 near Foucoucourt.

Now I'm struck by a combat recorded by 2 AFC (SE5's) 1145-1200 Albert This is the same area & time frame as second Js 11 patrol. In this combat 4 SE5's were attacked by 8 Tripes - during which Lt Hoskings claimed a Tripe OOC - it rolled over, clouds of smoke and fell OOC over Fricoutt. At same time Capt Phillips zoomed onto tail of a Tripe and fired 50 rds at close range - this Tripe fell away slowly!!!!

Could one of these reflect MvR in 127/17? Necessitating final patrol on 477/17?

Interestingly a second 2 Sqn AW of 2Lt Pole & Lt Spence were attacked by 6 Triplanes at 1645 near Foucoucourt (just after MvR's 72 & 73rd) and they claimed to have hit the third attacker causing it to smoke and later seen on ground W Estrees - MvR on 477/17 perhaps.

MvR did not fly on 28 Mar 18 - Udet led Js 11 for first time on this date.

cheers Russ

[Ginger.]

Put simply, 'scientific fighting', was what the Huns did to us because they've never played cricket. Think Albert Ball or APFRD diving into a bunch of Huns all guns blazing and you've got the general idea of how we carried on. The bally Hun on the other hand preffered to skulk, sneak and slither about the sky then pounce when everything was in their favour. Typically, it took us a long time to gorm this, but when the likes of Mannock and McCudden did so we too became 'scientific fighters'... simple innit?
Now to get back to football, another sport which the Tuetons play sneakily, ever wonder how they always win us in penalty shootouts? Some years back an undercover agent found out what they did and we didn't... the bastards practice taking 'em!!!
So you can add 'scientific footballing' to their long list of dastardly doings. They might excel at all this sly vileness, as I suppose all real baddies should do, but they could never, ever, appreciate the folowing...

Vitai Lampada

There's a breathless hush in the Close to-night --
Ten to make and the match to win --
A bumping pitch and a blinding light,
An hour to play and the last man in.
And it's not for the sake of a ribboned coat,
Or the selfish hope of a season's fame,
But his Captain's hand on his shoulder smote --
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'

The sand of the desert is sodden red, --
Red with the wreck of a square that broke; --
The Gatling's jammed and the Colonel dead,
And the regiment blind with dust and smoke.
The river of death has brimmed his banks,
And England's far, and Honour a name,
But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks:
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'

This is the word that year by year,
While in her place the School is set,
Every one of her sons must hear,
And none that hears it dare forget.
This they all with a joyful mind
Bear through life like a torch in flame,
And falling fling to the host behind --
'Play up! play up! and play the game!'

[DamianL]

Ginger

I came across a behaviour that we think is worse than the hunnish behaviour you describe.

In Australia we call it 'Pommish' behaviour.

Typically characterised by:

Physiotherapist slinking onto the cricket pitch, when obviously no cricketers are hurt or injured, to try and time waste, and prevent gallant Aussie cricketers from winning a test match. Bodyline comes to mind too, I think bodyline was actually called scientific leg theory?

Boring-as-bat-shit Johnnie Wilkinson, get the ball kick a field goal, get the ball kick a field goal, zzzzz..... snooze...... scientific-skulking-slinking poor excuse for Rugby.

Johnny would probably make a good England footballer, don't they usually put the ball over the bar when they are taking penalties?

Looking forward to your reply.

Cheers

Damian

[Ginger.]

Damian, you're just a poor loser!

[Chock]

Actually, if you go all the way back to 1932-33 Ashes tour, you find that the England Cricket team indulged in some very 'Hunnish' behaviour...

That was of course the infamous 'Bodyline' tour, when Douglas Jardine came up with an evil plan to combat the legendary Don Bradman's 139 batting average, by having Bill Voce and Harold Larwood adopt the thoroughly caddish tactic of pitching short balls at high speed so they came right up at the batsman in the hope that he'd deflect it into the slips in panic as the ball whizzed toward his upper body.

I certainly wouldn't have a chap who did that sort of thing in my Gentleman's Club, as I'd consider him an absolute caddish bounder, by jove! It's a jolly poor show and a typical filthy Hun trick to actually think about games and play them with such thoroughly Hunnish things as tactics and intelligence. Legend has it that the Bodyline tactic was devised after watching and studying film footage which highlighted a weakness in Bradman's technique, and that's about as bally un-British and caddish as you can be! Next thing you know, we'll be training and practicing, it's an outrage! I shall be writing a strongly-worded letter to The Times if that ever happens.

Al

[DamianL]

Chock

I think the England team have finally realised the error of their ways, and taken your advice to heart.

The limited-over cricket team appears to have stopped all forms of training and intelligent thought!

Cheers

Damian

[RussGannon]

Guys this just ain't cricket!!!! As much as I love the game, is this really the place to air bad blood over the Ashes?

Back to topic at hand.

Earlier somone raised the issue of MvR and SE5's. Here is a little more food for thought. On 17 Aug 17 Capt Bowman led an early six man OP. Copying German tactics - Bowman, Potts & Horrell flew an upper patrol, whilst Mayberry, RT Leighton & DS Wilkinson flew the lower patrol. At about 0630BT, East of Polygon the lower patrol was attacked by 9 - 11 Alb Scouts - Bowman would record in his CR: 'EA formation was led by a totally red Albatross" Mayberry takes up tale in his CR: 'Two EA came down onto me, one all in red in colour, and I fought this, but they outclimbed me on every turn owing to my engine. The all-red EA overshot me, and I managed to get a short burst from both guns at him, but without effect, when suddenly my engine stopped. I started to glide for the lines but two EA got so close to my tail that I had to turn and manoevre, losing height..." We now return to Bowman: 'I dived upon the red Albatross, and was on his tail for a short time, and I fired about thirty rounds from Lewis gun, but had to leave as I was then in the middle of the EA formation.."

Rather than quote rest of these CR's - in short Mayberry realised only one of his magneto's had been working and playing with switch got his engine running again and turned on the EA; one of which immediately flew off east. At same time he saw an SE being driven down by two EA. Bowman in the meantime attacked another scout at close range and sent it down apparently OOC. Both Mayberry & Bowman continued to scrap but also continued to suffer from further engine trouble and subsequently had to returned across lines.

They were minus RT Leighton & DS Wilkinson. Laighton was clearly brought down POW WIA by Ltn Gross of Jasta 11 - 'SE' deiseits W Passchendaele 0725 GT making it abundantly clear that Bowman's flight had been attacked by Js 11. Wilkinson crashed mortally wounded at Wervicq-Sud and was credited to OStv muller of Js 28 his 22nd vic (several photos of Muller with wreck also photo of same wreck in OTF Vol 14 #2 p127). This however was over 10km south of the dogfight suggestive that Muller had evailed himself of a low flying Wilkinson probably having shook off his Js 11 attackers.

Now it is my opinion that the 'all red' Albatros was flown by none other than MvR. Richthofen purists will no doubt point to his letter to his mother claiming that he had only flown two missions in August - 16 & 26 Aug. But I would counter this was the letter of a still recovering son who did not want his mother to worry - merely admitting the two dates, because on these he had scored and news of which would no doubt have reached Germany.

Hows Zat

Russ.

[DamianL]

Just tried to add a little humor to the otherwise tired & childish direction of Hunnish behaviour and "my side fought more gallantly than your side" direction that your posts inevitably take.

Damian

[Chock]

I don't think any real student of history lends much credence to the notion of national personality traits, if there really is such a thing, affecting any tactics, 'Hunnish' or otherwise.

Given the chance, I think I'd have cheerfully engaged in being a sneaky b*****d if I'd have found myself having to fly a plane in WW1. After all, why risk a collision or a stray bullet knocking your block off in a swirling dogfight, if you could instead hack down some hapless loner nursing a sick engine on the edge of such a furball? It's certainly cruel, but it's also exactly what I'd try to take advantage of if I could. Derisory accusations leveled at famous aces having indulged in that kind of thing there may be, but they were getting the job done all the same and the score sheet shows it was the way to go. In a war of attrition, it's numbers that count and not glorious tales of keenly contested aerial duels, because we know how that turns out, as Voss and Ball would doubtless confirm if they were alive to speak of such things.

As Douglas Bader famously said: 'War is not a game of cricket'. Thus, we should not be fooled into imagining that every ace was either likable or especially sporting, because neither trait is part of the job description for anyone other than the press. But back on the subject of the original thread, here's an interesting one to consider with regard to aces, tactics, and glorious tales...

Apparently a few 85 Squadron pilots actively objected to the proposed choice of James McCudden to replace the outgoing William Bishop as 85 Squadron commander, instead requesting Mannock, who of course ended up with the job. Bishop was never really content to lead the Squadron as many at 85 had evidently wished, preferring instead his lone forays, these being the ones that led to many of the, if not actually proven to be dubious, then certainly unwitnessed claims he put in. Regardless of whether one subscribes to the school of Billy Liar, or the church of much maligned Saint Billy, what is not in doubt is that Bishop had about half of 85 squadron's victory claims on his personal score sheet by the time he was being bumped back to Canada and out of 85, so he was certainly not spreading the love among his charges at 85 in the way at least some of them apparently would have preferred.

But in fairness, you do hear conflicting views about Bishop's popularity at 85 and in the RFC at large; if there was anywhere I'd ever like to have been a fly on the wall, it would be for some conversations around their mess in summer 1918. More interesting than accusations and opinions on Bishop however, is the notion that some pilots at 85 evidently considered McCudden would not get them the successes they craved when they heard he was potentially coming as Bishop's replacement. I don't think anyone doubts McCudden's sincerity, or the credulity of his claims and successes, but it seems that some at 85 thought he would offer more of the same in terms of few opportunities to score victories among the various flights.

It's well known that Mannock was one of the 'scientific fighters' when it comes to the tactical positioning of leading flights and setting up attacks, and was keen to see pilots in his charge grow. This was no secret at the time either, so one can understand the pilots yet to open their score sheet at 85 preferring him as a choice. Conversely, it seems McCudden had preferred taking the science of stalking things solo to its zenith, a preference which was also well known among the RFC flyers at the time too. But what do you think McCudden would have done in the role at 85 had he got it? Was it a misconception for some pilots at 85 to think he'd not have got them the kills they wanted, and not been a 'team player'? Moreover, the apparent desire for a commander who adopted such 'scientific' methods is more than enough evidence that British pilots at large couldn't give a toss about being 'sporting' and were on the whole just as keen to fight 'unfairly'. And if that's the case, then it makes Bishop, with his lone forays, one of the more sporting types!

Mannock and McCudden were apparently on quite friendly terms, Mannock even stating McCudden's tutelage had saved his life once, but there's a big difference in their attitudes to combat. Their reactions to the news of the death of MVR is no better illustration of that, with McCudden relating in Flying Fury how his squadron toasted the Baron's fall that evening, which is in contrast to Mannock expressing the hope that 'toasted' was exactly how he hoped the Baron had met his end, refusing to raise a glass to him at all.

We do know McCudden liked to stalk two seaters on his own, and that was a game for loners when played the way McCudden preferred it, so in that they'd be back on the kind of territory Bishop preferred at 85, but is that all McCudden would have done, if given the freedom of such a command? Mannock too liked going for two seaters, but his methods involved the flight he was leading, invariably gaining each man a victory credit.

Speculate away gentlemen....

Al

[RussGannon]

Greg raised the point about the taking of souveniers.

Readers of JTB's Five Years in the Royal Flying Corps will be aware of this paragraph following his downing of an FA 8 two-seater on 17 Oct 17 (Obln Hadrich & Flg Horstmann both kia):

"..for although I landed a very short time after the Hun came down the Tommies had already taken what was worth taking, and the way they behaved around the machine was not very edyfying from the disciplined point of view in which I had always been brought up."

Now it would be fair to say the editors tidied this up a bit so as not to cause friction within the British Dominoin's readership; as appended to JTB's original CR is this report by 56 Sqn commander Maj Blomfeild:

"....Capt McCudden landed in the same field as the EA machine in order to put a guard on and to help salve as much as the machine as possible, but was unable to do anything as hundreds of Australian troops were looting every available part of the machine and were even going so far as to strip the dead observer of clothing."

I guess it is only natural for some people to view their own peoples & national forces (or idealogically adopted forces) through 'rose coloured' glasses - with the attached bagage that it is only the opposition who behave badly. But in truth no army or nation or indeed sports team are ever that squeaky clean.

Back to 17 Aug 18 & 56 Sqn's dogfight wirth Js 11.

I think it is also worth quoting part of Jason Pott's CR because it in part answers the question raised in another thread re SE5 v Albatros:

'...I had just got onto the tail of one when two others attacked me. A climbing race ensued in which I had a very slight advantage, but immediately I tried to dive on one the others got on my tail. Being a long way over the lines I was obliged to give up the fight. Coming back to the lines I met up with another SE5 but lost it again...'

Potts goes on to state he then met up with Capt Bowman and after patrolling a bit more they returned across the lines.

I would suspect the other SE5 was that of Wilkinson - one can deduce that a strong NW wind must have been blowing, forcing the SE5's deeper into German territory. Wikinson clearly as far SE as Wervicq.

Cheers Russ