last connection - alex , dan-san , norman et al

[Fill]

I wasn't really sure where to post this , but in the end it is about people .
So there are no more participants to talk to about the air war , and the group of men who have met and talked to them are not getting any younger . Of course we have read in their books about how they interviewed someone in such and such a year , but that was totally about a battle experience . Perhaps I'm the only one , but I keep thinking how interesting it would be to get these great writers and contributors to tell in their own words what is was like meeting these fliers , what they remember most from the talks , just about anything they wanted to put down would be interesting . So where could something like that be done ?. This forum would seem like a perfect place , as long as us junior armchair historians just watched and listened and didn't try to have an opinion .... o.k. so perhaps it has already been done before ?, if so I haven't seen the thread . I thought it was worth a post anyway ....

[rainbase]

What a great idea, Fill! I'm sure a bunch of us would love to read some of those accounts.

[steven brown]

Fill,
A wonderful idea! I hope they all agree.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Bonjour Fill

Yes, a rather noble sentiment ... My father, now deceased, had meet Great War airmen and I wish the anecdotes related had been collected even if only in an informal manner. A few years ago Legends Of Aviation No.4 S.E. 5a by Kocent-Zieliński was purchased and my father related "I lived across the road from him when growing up" while pointing a profile of a S.E.5a flown by William Harrison when with 40 Squadron.

Years ago I was in a room with George Vaughn and Douglas Campbell, but, was too awestruck to speak to either!

So yes, any impressions or memories of meetings with the Great War pilots and aircrew of those gentlemen from whose efforts we here have so benefited would be much appreciated.

Salut!
Kirk

[Gregvan]

Hi,

Thanks to the efforts of J.R., in a recent issue of "OtF" Dan-San discussed his meetings with Willy Coppens. Great stuff.

[Kirk R. Lowry]

Originally Posted by Gregvan

Hi,

Thanks to the efforts of J.R., in a recent issue of "OtF" Dan-San discussed his meetings with Willy Coppens.

Yes, I enjoyed reading that memoir a great deal ... an excellent article in which the bond between the two men was made apparent.

Kirk

[Gregvan]

Hi Again,

Jon Guttman has probably met and/or corresponded with more WWI aero-veterans than most of the rest of us, except for Alex Revell and Norman Franks. Plus, Jon was lucky enough to attend the very last WWI aces' reunion in Paris a number of years ago (Boy, did I envy him that - it would have been like spending time with the last U.S. Civil War vets, or the last of Napoleon's soldiers). Jon's recent book on "The Rise of the Fighter Aircraft" draws upon much of his experiences with these men. Through Jon's kindness, I was able to spend an afternoon at George Vaughn's home about 30 years ago, discussing a few things with him, and met him again (along with Doug Campbell and Ray Brooks) ever so briefly during the first OtF Seminar in Dallas...Barrett knew Ray Brooks quite well, I believe, and also met Vaughn and Campbell.

I also had the priviledge of interviewing Dallas Darling, who had serviced SPAD VII's and XIII's as a mechanic in the 139th Aero Squadron. He recalled having 'swung the prop' for David Putnam a few time on his early morning takeoffs; quite a thrill for me.

A certain banned member of this forum met and interviewed many German airmen of the great war, including more than a few who flew with Richthofen. On a similar topic, I wish someone would record a lengthy conversation with Alex Imrie concerning all of the various German pilots he knew so well, before we lose that precious resource. As Fill said, that primary generation of historians is advancing in years, and it won't be long before...well, just in my own circle of acquaintances, we've lost so many historians in recent years: Pete Grosz (who was the best raconteur I've ever heard, and who had a wealth of stories of his meetings with German aerial pioneers), Neal O'Connor, George Williams, Marty O'Connor, and on and on.

Perhaps most interesting, I know that Alex Revell and others who knew these men often have some very enlightening stories that they were sworn not to reveal until the sources, and their contemporaries, were passed on. In particular, sentiments and experiences regarding certain well-known airmen such as BB. We owe it to history to now share and preserve these memories, even if certain legends are tarnished - IMHO.

Greg

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Fill,

You have raised a very important point, and I agree, this forum is an ideal place for such accounts to be published. I always had every intention of meeting as many WW1 pilots as I could while they were still with us. I even wanted to meet TOM Sopwith! As it turned out, due to lack of time and money in the years I was trying to establish a career, I did not meet any of these pilots, but did meet one a few years later. I have discussed this issue on this forum in the past, but I will do so again, because I know it will be of interest to at least some of the members of this site.

The pilot I met on a few occasions was Gerald Muir, who also seems to have been known as Gerald Jensen Muir. Whether the name Jensen was hyphenated with Muir or was his middle name, I don't know. Relatively little seems to be known about him, and he seemed to be a bit protective about information relating to his war service as a pilot. He told me that he was born in 1901, which would suggest to me that he probably flew Snipes and Camels - as he told me he did - in the Army of Occupation in 1919, rather than in combat during the war. Still, if this was the case I would not have judged him because he did not fly in combat. Gerald was also a collector of photographs, which I subsequently purchased, an author and an artist. It seems to me that he was probably also a founding member of Cross and Cockade, if not he would have at least been one of the first contibutors to it. I have a very incomplete collection of Cross and Cockade publications, and relatively litle time to go through those I do have to find out what I can about Gerald, but I have seen some of his art work and articles from time to time. I am sure that many of you will be familiar with the photograph of the 208 Squadron Sopwith Snipe. This photograph was also produced as a stereo view. Gerald told me that is him in the photograph. Whether it is or not, I don't know, but it sure does look like him, and the pilot in the photograph is about the right height. Gerald was very tall, as is the pilot in the photograph, even when he was aged in his early 90's, as he was when I first met him.

On every occasion I was with Gerald I experienced a very strong desire to record as much information as I could. Gerald could open the pages of his photograph albums to almost any page and tell a story about almost every photo! Given that there are about 5,000 photos in the collection, the process of getting the story of each photo, writing it down or recording it in some other way such as a tape recording would have been extremely time consuming. Gerald had very limited patience at times, and tended to get tired easily of course at his age, so both visits relating to the photograph albums were cut short by him. I managed to get a tape recording during the first visit, but during the second visit, he did not allow me to take a tape recording unfortunately. As a result, most of the stories relating to most of the photographs have gone with Gerald. Even the tape recorded conversation would be difficult to decipher. We were quickly skipping through each of the twelve albums due to the fact that there are so many photographs, and they take so long to go through, and Gerald's limited strength and energy at that time. He was very strong and lively for a 91 or 92 year old man but he did get tired relatively quickly - by which I mean within a few hours or so which is not too bad, but I had to make the most of the time I had.

My overwhelming feeling was one of hopelessness. Every time I was with Gerald I knew that he would be very happy to pass as many stories on as possible, but I was only able to get down to see him occasionally, and it had to be a mutually agreeable time of course. Even though I am sure he would have spent a lot of time on his own and would have been very happy to talk about his photograph albums and his experiences as a pilot the number of factors which had to come together simultaneously meant that relatively little time was able to be spent with Gerald discussing these issues. I knew that most of what he had to say was going to be lost but I did not feel that I was in a position to do any more to preserve this priceless information than I was already doing. Provided I am able to locate the tape recording, which I am sure I will be able to, and have the time to review it, I am sure that I will be able to match some of the stories Gerald told me with some of the photographs. At the time I had very small scraps of paper which I numbered 1st album viewed, 2nd album viewed, etc. The reason for this was that when I review the tape recording, I will have a much better chance of matching Gerald's comments with the photograph he was referring to at the time. In the following years though I found that these pieces of paper fell out of their albums from time to time when I have been moving the albums, or when people have borrowed them or have been looking at them. As a result I might not necessarily be able to match each comment with the photograph it was intended for, but I will certainly do the best I can.

As you mentioned, people such as Alex, Dan San and Norman will have countless information they could post here on this subject, and I certainly like to see as much such information posted here as possible. I will try to post as much as I can here on this forum, and I know from experience that it would be a huge task for these researchers and authors to contribute as much information as they possibly can to this forum.

Regards,

David.

[Gregvan]

Hello David,

A fascinating story. Many of us have had similar experiences when we tried to interview these aged gentlemen.

I presume that it was your Gerald Muir who did the fine cover art for these first edition Aussie books? Both are said to have been illustrated by Gerald Muir. I'm sorry I don't have better scans, but I found these on the 'net.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Greg,

I am David, Gerald is the First World War pilot and researcher I interviewed on two occasions, and who offered his collection of 5,000 or so photographs of First World War aeroplanes to. I purchased them of course and I would like to see as many of them as possible published in books by such well known, prefessional and respected authors as yourself. Yes I am sure those two paintings are by Gerlad Muir.

Cheers,

David.