Lothar Von Richthofen

[Aceman001]

I am looking for pictures of Lothar Von Richthofen in a flight suit. I have browsed on the internet and found some, but I believe there are more than what is actually on the internet.

I am curious pilots of WW 1 did not have a standard flight suit so many improvised. So did they fly with their long, heavy coats?

[tcrean7828]

mate,
From all of the pic's that I have looked at, it appears so. My question still is, how did they move about?

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[stevedrew]

Originally Posted by Aceman001

I am looking for pictures of Lothar Von Richthofen in a flight suit. I have browsed on the internet and found some, but I believe there are more than what is actually on the internet.

I am curious pilots of WW 1 did not have a standard flight suit so many improvised. So did they fly with their long, heavy coats?

Surprisingly, for a branch of the Services, the uniform requirements were very lax when airborne. Some were strict whilst on the ground, but it appears that you could improvise to increase your comfort whilst aloft.

An Australian, Sidney Cotton, was working on his aircraft when scrambled from his airfield. Other pilots took to the air half dressed in their pyjamas etc, with a coat thrown on over the top, maybe a scarf around their necks. Most returned half-frozen, and many suffered for some days afterwards. Sidney Cotton had on only his overalls, that were smeared with oil and grease, and he didn't suffer any discomfort at all.

He began experimenting with impregnation of oil into cloth, and so was born the Sidcot flying suit. This became a prized item amongst both sides, with German pilots who were victors over English pilots wearing the suits "confiscating" them (well, they wouldn't need them any more would they?), and wearing them as a badge of honour.

Tom, there's a funny story about how one pilot played a practical joke on Stan Dallas, impersonating a General (I think) and insisting Dallas take the Breguet up immediately, with Dallas trying to explain to the "General" that the aircraft had no propellor, and wasn't going anywhere. When a dumbfounded Dallas tried to relate the unusual request to his fellow pilots, one of them replied (in the General's voice) "Well, take it up anyway, Dallas". (This was the origin of Dallas's nickname of Breguet). Apparently, the entire flight fell about laughing at the sight of the pilot dressed in their full flying gear (full length fur lined boots, fur coat etc) running across the airfield, Dallas in hot pursuit with the same clothing, totally unsuited to athletic activities such as this.

[Chock]

A common thing you read in WW1 biographies is pilots putting their uniforms over their pajamas and then something such as a sidcot suit over all that lot. This is probably not mere laziness when up for a dawn patrol, but the simple expedient of trapping air in between many layers of clothing to help keep warm. Even on summer days, grass airfields are cold, damp and dewy places early in the morning, as any pilot will confirm. It does not take long for a nice military tunic to end up a disgraceful mess in those circumstances. Even on formal pics of national heroes such as MVR, you can see his tunic often looks a bit scruffy.

Goose fat was occasionally smeared on exposed skin by WW1 pilots, in a manner similar to what you see long distance ocean swimmers doing even today. That and the proximity of oil, grease and petrol accounts for the often filthy and always disheveled appearance of pilot tunics in WW1 pictures, which like things such as the 'Spitfire shoulder' tear on the left side of a pilot's clothing where it catches on the cockpit access lever, became something of a badge of recognition, much like the silk scarf, that being to avoid chafing from clothing when constantly craning your neck about looking for the enemy, but later becoming part of the pilot's rakish look too despite its practical origins.

Strict dress codes in such an environment are largely impractical and would in any case have been largely ignored in the same way that troops in the field make up their own version of what the proper uniform should be for nothing if not practical reasons. A wise commander doesn't even try to enforce dress discipline in a situation such as that, even if he could. It's also worth mentioning that officers had to cough up to have their tunics tailored, which is why many RFC guys stayed in their old Khaki tunics even when there was the new RAF uniform available, since it was likely to end up similarly disheveled if worn on operations. Pilots, and especially fighter pilots have always been somewhat individual and there is no doubt many cultivated a scruffy appearance simply because they could get away with it, with unofficial conventions such as the first button of the tunic being always undone a telling sign of that culture, so it's no surprise to find a wide array of flight suits.

Anyone who has ever been in an open cockpit up over about 8,000 feet will confirm how bloody cold it is, and if you've never done that, then you will almost certainly be familiar with how cold you can get on a speeding motorbike even on sunny days. Add that feeling to the lower ambient temperature when you get up high and you'll have some idea of how cold it can get up there, especially after an hour or so. I've personally found myself freezing my ass off even on summer days in an enclosed cockpit when wearing jeans and a sweatshirt with a (modern) RAF flight suit on top of that gear. It generally starts getting cold once up over about 5,000 feet in Europe, regardless of what season it is. Older aircraft with canvas over a frame fuselage are almost always cold things to sit in when flying about and in winter it is absolutely perishing, although oddly enough, a lot of the time you are so busy you don't notice it, but when you do, it is pretty miserable. You have to really want to go flying on days like that!

When you see pictures of the brothers Richthofen, you have to bear in mind that they were not short of a few quid, and so they could afford the best flying gear, and in fact being 'celebrities', they most likely got stuff given to them purely for the honour of manufacturers being able to say, 'we made this for MVR'. I'm sure Joe Pilot and all the other mere mortals did not get such things lavished upon them such as the swanky fur suit MVR has on in some pictures, so a greatcoat might well have to suffice. The reverse of that is that people such as LVR and MVR probably had a wardrobe full of different flying gear.

If you check out the pictures of Manfred Von Richthofen and Anthony Fokker examining the wreck of of Algernon Bird's Sopwith Pup that was MVR's 61st victory, you can see Fokker is wearing Bird's flying coat and hat, which is indicative of how much some flight gear was prized, as like MVR, there's little doubt Anthony Fokker could have afforded the best that money could buy. It's a fair bet that the boots Bird has on in those pictures got appropriated by someone too before he got packed off to a POW camp.

Al

[tcrean7828]

Originally Posted by Chock

A common thing you read in WW1 biographies is pilots putting their uniforms over their pajamas and then something such as a sidcot suit over all that lot. This is probably not mere laziness when up for a dawn patrol, but the simple expedient of trapping air in between many layers of clothing to help keep warm. Even on summer days, grass airfields are cold, damp and dewy places early in the morning, as any pilot will confirm. It does not take long for a nice military tunic to end up a disgraceful mess in those circumstances. Even on formal pics of national heroes such as MVR, you can see his tunic often looks a bit scruffy.

Goose fat was occasionally smeared on exposed skin by WW1 pilots, in a manner similar to what you see long distance ocean swimmers doing even today. That and the proximity of oil, grease and petrol accounts for the often filthy and always disheveled appearance of pilot tunics in WW1 pictures, which like things such as the 'Spitfire shoulder' tear on the left side of a pilot's clothing where it catches on the cockpit access lever, became something of a badge of recognition, much like the silk scarf, that being to avoid chafing from clothing when constantly craning your neck about looking for the enemy, but later becoming part of the pilot's rakish look too despite its practical origins.

Strict dress codes in such an environment are largely impractical and would in any case have been largely ignored in the same way that troops in the field make up their own version of what the proper uniform should be for nothing if not practical reasons. A wise commander doesn't even try to enforce dress discipline in a situation such as that, even if he could. It's also worth mentioning that officers had to cough up to have their tunics tailored, which is why many RFC guys stayed in their old Khaki tunics even when there was the new RAF uniform available, since it was likely to end up similarly disheveled if worn on operations. Pilots, and especially fighter pilots have always been somewhat individual and there is no doubt many cultivated a scruffy appearance simply because they could get away with it, with unofficial conventions such as the first button of the tunic being always undone a telling sign of that culture, so it's no surprise to find a wide array of flight suits.

Anyone who has ever been in an open cockpit up over about 8,000 feet will confirm how bloody cold it is, and if you've never done that, then you will almost certainly be familiar with how cold you can get on a speeding motorbike even on sunny days. Add that feeling to the lower ambient temperature when you get up high and you'll have some idea of how cold it can get up there, especially after an hour or so. I've personally found myself freezing my ass off even on summer days in an enclosed cockpit when wearing jeans and a sweatshirt with a (modern) RAF flight suit on top of that gear. It generally starts getting cold once up over about 5,000 feet in Europe, regardless of what season it is. Older aircraft with canvas over a frame fuselage are almost always cold things to sit in when flying about and in winter it is absolutely perishing, although oddly enough, a lot of the time you are so busy you don't notice it, but when you do, it is pretty miserable. You have to really want to go flying on days like that!

When you see pictures of the brothers Richthofen, you have to bear in mind that they were not short of a few quid, and so they could afford the best flying gear, and in fact being 'celebrities', they most likely got stuff given to them purely for the honour of manufacturers being able to say, 'we made this for MVR'. I'm sure Joe Pilot and all the other mere mortals did not get such things lavished upon them such as the swanky fur suit MVR has on in some pictures, so a greatcoat might well have to suffice. The reverse of that is that people such as LVR and MVR probably had a wardrobe full of different flying gear.

If you check out the pictures of Manfred Von Richthofen and Anthony Fokker examining the wreck of of Algernon Bird's Sopwith Pup that was MVR's 61st victory, you can see Fokker is wearing Bird's flying coat and hat, which is indicative of how much some flight gear was prized, as like MVR, there's little doubt Anthony Fokker could have afforded the best that money could buy. It's a fair bet that the boots Bird has on in those pictures got appropriated by someone too before he got packed off to a POW camp.

Al

Mates,
Thanks for the info, it is just super super interesting and another facit that might be there that I missed is that Silk was a very good insolator against the cold - that is most probably when MvR was undressed for autopsey, they found him in his silk PJs and that Werner Voss always wore a colored silk shirt every time he went aloft.

ttfn

tcrean7828

tom

[frontflieger]

Originally Posted by Chock

... you can see Fokker is wearing Bird's flying coat and hat, which is indicative of how much some flight gear was prized, as like MVR, there's little doubt Anthony Fokker could have afforded the best that money could buy.

One good example is Carl August von Schoenebeck wearing the flying coat of his first aerial victory, standing in front of the plane he had brought down.

Thorsten

[FOKKERJ]

Originally Posted by stevedrew

Surprisingly, for a branch of the Services, the uniform requirements were very lax when airborne. Some were strict whilst on the ground, but it appears that you could improvise to increase your comfort whilst aloft.

An Australian, Sidney Cotton, was working on his aircraft when scrambled from his airfield. Other pilots took to the air half dressed in their pyjamas etc, with a coat thrown on over the top, maybe a scarf around their necks. Most returned half-frozen, and many suffered for some days afterwards. Sidney Cotton had on only his overalls, that were smeared with oil and grease, and he didn't suffer any discomfort at all.

He began experimenting with impregnation of oil into cloth, and so was born the Sidcot flying suit. This became a prized item amongst both sides, with German pilots who were victors over English pilots wearing the suits "confiscating" them (well, they wouldn't need them any more would they?), and wearing them as a badge of honour.

Tom, there's a funny story about how one pilot played a practical joke on Stan Dallas, impersonating a General (I think) and insisting Dallas take the Breguet up immediately, with Dallas trying to explain to the "General" that the aircraft had no propellor, and wasn't going anywhere. When a dumbfounded Dallas tried to relate the unusual request to his fellow pilots, one of them replied (in the General's voice) "Well, take it up anyway, Dallas". (This was the origin of Dallas's nickname of Breguet). Apparently, the entire flight fell about laughing at the sight of the pilot dressed in their full flying gear (full length fur lined boots, fur coat etc) running across the airfield, Dallas in hot pursuit with the same clothing, totally unsuited to athletic activities such as this.

G'Day Steve Drew,

Thanks for sharing that.

What a coincidence, I know this fella that goes by name of Breguet, he seems to know an awful lot about this Stan Dallas character.
Maybe there's a connection (?).

I'll have to ask my friend or read his book and research this matter in more depth!

Cheers, FOKKERJ

P.S. Aceman001, Welcome to the Aerodrome.
Long may you run.