LtCol Charles B. Winder

Bluehawk · 28 October 2009, 10:34 AM

Can anyone give some guidance to online photograph and biographical information about LtCol Winder, please.

Listed among the first 25 rated USAS Military Aviators, his life and service details have been elusive, to me.

Am writing a Remembrance for him, and not getting very far with normal resources.

Could not find him in the AFRHA Goodier collection either...

ONEALM · 31 October 2009, 02:24 PM

Bluehawk -

Not much to be had on Winder as you've discovered. Maybe this will give you a toe-hold -

According to Sloan's

Wings of Honor, Winder was with the Ohio National Guard and earned FAI certificate # 130. I have not cross checked the certificate number (most of my books are still in boxes as we are in the process of moving....). SLoan gives no war-time assignments for the man.

I checked Whos Who in Aeronautics for 1925 and he is not listed. Not sure if that means anything, but it will save you the effort of checking that reference.

Hope that little bit helps,
Mike

Bluehawk · 31 October 2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ONEALM

Bluehawk -

Not much to be had on Winder as you've discovered. Maybe this will give you a toe-hold -

According to Sloan's

Wings of Honor, Winder was with the Ohio National Guard and earned FAI certificate # 130. I have not cross checked the certificate number (most of my books are still in boxes as we are in the process of moving....). SLoan gives no war-time assignments for the man.

I checked Whos Who in Aeronautics for 1925 and he is not listed. Not sure if that means anything, but it will save you the effort of checking that reference.

Hope that little bit helps,
Mike

I do appreciate that, Mike.

When one must resort to random searches for all Americans named "Winder" born between 1850-1920 anywhere near Florida, then the time has come to admit near-defeat.

If I should ever discover the hidden treasure of his biography, then it will be shared far and wide.

ONEALM · 1 November 2009, 11:24 AM

BlueHawk -

Checked "For the Greatest Achievement", by Bill Robie, which I consider a very accurate list of the ACA cert holders, and Witmer is listed as havign earned Aero Club of America Certificate #53 .

Keep at it,
-Mike

Bluehawk · 1 November 2009, 12:21 PM

Mike, here are a couple of potentially relevant comments made by fellow seekers on the USMF forum at this link:
The Original 24 Military Aviators - Photographs - U.S. Militaria Forum
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"Seydel is tough, so is Winder...although I did find a couple of pretty good pictures of him in the LOC collection where he was involved in a rifle sharpshooter competition. I think his father was on one of the Olympic teams as a sharpshooter, also. Not much to be found about him beyond 1912, and of all the early MA's, Winder is one of two, about whom I haven't found when he died. He did use his military training to fly as an exhibition pilot for commercial gain and apparently incurred some substantial animus from the others.

Others that I've found tough to flesh out in later life are Muller, Carberry, and Chapman.

This post has been edited by Paul S: Oct 27 2009, 09:02 PM"
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"Paul: We have discussed this before but I must say again that Winder was never an MA. He was a National Guard officer and not included under the Regular Army regulation that established the Military Aviator rating. In addition, he never took the MA tests. While he was at College Parlk/ Augusta, GA he completed the basic flight training program and qualified for the basic FAI pilot's certificate. He then returned to the National Guard where he used his government training to acquire an ACA`license that allowed him to compete in ACA sanctioned air meets for prize money. He styled himself as a Miitary Aviator to enhance his marketability as a show pilot, but he was never an real Military Aviator. Prior to the 1916 National Defense Act, the National Guard was a separate organization and not subject to Regular Army regulations or eligible to receive Regular Army qulaification awards. His claim to fame is that he was the first National Guard officer whom the Regular Army trained to fly, but he was never an MA. Dwight (drmessimera)"
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"I too agree primarily because if Lt. Colonel Charles B. Winder (FAI license #130) had officially qualified as a Military Aviator he would have automatically been awarded Expert Aviator certificate #7 under the rules established by the Aero Club of America.

For the record Paul W. Beck (FAI license #39) was Military Aviator #4 and Expert Aviator #6. Following Paul Beck, Benjamin D. Foulois (FAI license #140) became Military Aviator number 5 and subsequently received Expert Aviator Certificate number 7. Therefore, since Colonel Winder was never awarded an Expert Aviator certificate, that too is positive proof he never received a Military Aviator rating. So did he ever wear a MA badge anyway? We will probably never know.

One more thing, while Lt. Colonel Winder (Ohio National Guard) was the first National Guard officer trained to fly; PFC Beckwith Haven (NYNG) was the first National Guard pilot.

Cheers,

Cliff"
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"The most I can tell you about him is he was born in 1875. If it might help you, the name of his wife was Emma H. Winder, born 1886. They had two children; Mary V. Winder who was born 1906, and Marin B. Winder who was born in 1917. Officially, he completed his training at the Army Aviation School in Augusta, GA on June 5, 1912. The last known address I have on him was West Palm Beach, Florida in 1920."