MvR's last pull on his Spandau

[Laserlloyd]

Originally Posted by Bushrod

On pg 64 of TRBLF, the authors submit that MvR's face was thrown into the gun butts because he had, "loosened his safety harness so as to be able to reach forward to re-cock the machine gun each time it stopped." Can any DrI experts chime in here: 1)were shoulder restraints standard in the DrI? 2)in a crash landing, would shoulder restaints, even fully tightened, keep the pilot's head from hitting the gun butts? 3)would an experienced pilot wear the straps loose to be able to look around better?

OK, see how you would react after you just got shot....Lets examine this a little bit more. The bullet enters the right side of his abdomen around his ninth rib that get fractured and exits his left chest about two inch higher. It is IMHO that the heart was hit but regardless of the true path his right and left lung would have been damaged.

So now we know he has at lest one broken rib from one of the examinations for the entrance wound and at lest his right lung puncher, and what ever happen pass that point. The lungs are filling with fluid and you can't breath.

The last thing I'm going to do is to mess with my guns after being shot. So now MvR is having a hard time in breathing he loosened his safety harness not to reach for a gun but to take the presser caused by the safety harness off his chest because he can't breath in fact he's drowning. From the evidence that there was a lot of blood from his mouth one would have to ask was this all from his face hitting the gun but or could it have started before that from his wounds is it possible that he would also be spiting up blood.

I think he loosened the safety harness or pulled the pin holding the safety harness together in an effort to help him breath from the server wound that just happened. There is Nothing he could have or would have been doing to the guns by reaching forward, the mechanized to re-charge the gun is right in front of him but still this would be that last thing on his mind after being shot.

Lloyd...

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

Here is something I fond on the No. 3 stoppage.

The Vickers Machine Gun: 1951 Vickers Manual Part 1

Lloyd...

You obviously did'nt read my post no.10

[Ginger.]

He didn't read Dan San's either... the straps couldn't be loosened in flight. Maybe, and this is only an opinion... The Von was leaning forward banging his guns in frutration 'cos they wouldn't kill May properly?
Bit like this Red Baron and his treacherous steed....

YouTube- Fawlty Thrashing Car

YouTube- Fawlty Thrashing Car

[Laserlloyd]

Dave, (bristol scout)

Yes, I did read your post in fact it's because of you that I had searched for it and found the site so I posted the link for Dave Watts.

Thanks..

Ginger,

I did read Dan-San Post But You didn't read my post. I use term "loosened" because that what Bushrod used and then I said he would have to Pull the pin. Dud, I know about the seat belt in fact I have made the seat belt brackets for Achim for all his planes.


Lloyd..

[Ginger.]

Can't read 'em mate, you're on my 'ignore' list.

[Bushrod]

I apologize if my post has gotten things off the track; I was curious as to what the "harness" was and how restrictive(or not) it may have been. Dan's reply-that its main purpose was to keep the pilot in the plane and was adjusted prior to take off-cleared that up, at least for me. Now, back to the guns. I dimly recall reading somewhere that when MvR took over #11, he instituted a rule that the pilot was responsible for checking/loading the ammo belts. Can anyone confirm this? Were jammed guns an acceptable reason for retiring from a fight?

[Laserlloyd]

Originally Posted by Ginger.

Can't read 'em mate, you're on my 'ignore' list.

If you cant' Read 'em Mate then why are you commenting on it Mate. It's just to bad I'm on your ignore list your just so entertaining Mate.

Bushrod,

Don't apologize you post was just fine. Just like you I'm here to learn too.

when MvR took over #11, he instituted a rule that the pilot was responsible for checking/loading the ammo belts.

Yes, I remember that too but I would have to look to see were I say it.

were jammed guns an acceptable reason for retiring from a fight?

I think if both gun's were that one would retreat.

I would be interested in knowing what was more common, jams or dudes?

Lloyd...

[Ginger.]

Originally Posted by Laserlloyd

If you cant' Read 'em Mate then why are you commenting on it Mate. It's just to bad I'm on your ignore list your just so entertaining Mate.


Lloyd...

Bugger, I must have proddled the wrong button, Loyd mate... you're still here!!!

[John McKenzie]

Hi Lloyde and Dave W .Just a couple of comments FWTW.
.Looking at the first 2 photos of Spandaus of crashed A/C , I'm not sure exactly what type of loading /charging device is fitted as the photo is not too clear ..
It looks like the" Flip-over" lever type with the roller and spindly handle , mounted in the bronze bolt on fitting assembly ...OR the similar , but with (already over ) integral lever ...Both types acted upon by the CAM attachment on the boss of the Cocking lever .(As oposed to Fred Murrins one which has the geared cam and geared eliptical " pull back over " lever handle .)..
BTW , I don't see the alloy safety latch /levers on either shots ?
I'm not too sure how the " Pull back "? lever shown (in crashed a/c or FM a/c )works , as it would seem to have to pull directly against the fussee spring without any mechanical advantage .( Or am I missing something in the photo ?) ..over the method of Flipping over the lever ,...Pushing the Knob of the cocking lever up ,over and fwd, the " cam " against the flipped over roller ,to break the lock open and clear the round ...*( This method requiring an arm to reach out over the MG to make this opperation* as supposedly reported .)*
*In this connection *, I note that on the 3 rd photo posted by Lloyd ,( ? of the same machine ? ) showing the padded " Butts " , there is a cut away to this padding just behind the ball handle ( of the cocking lever ) on the LH gun ...so that it may be gripped by the hand to recock/etc , by the latter method , presumably ? ..No need for cut away on RH as padding does not present an obstruction here .
I like to emphasise that I hold no brief for either senario, just interested .
Regards JM

[Gregvan]

Hi,

I doubt that these will add much to the discussion, but here are scans of my own prints. I'm sure much better ones may be had from the IWM: