MvR's last pull on his Spandau

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

While at the last GWAA air show in Dayton, I had my Spandau guns on display and was told by a group of guys the well-known account of how on MvR's last flight he was seen to reach up, over, and forward on his guns in an attempt to re-charge them. I am not so well versed on this account, so could someone briefly tell the story, and then I'll comment.

Thank you,
Best,
Dave W.

[Dave_Watts]

Lloyd,

I hope you see this and can relay the story and the guys who were there, (several from the Aerodrome Group).

Best,
Dave W.

[Laserlloyd]

Hi Dave,

Yes, I remember it as it was a vary in-lighting conversation for me.

Bob (BobPhil) and Dave from the GWAA were talking about his last flight when this account came up as you mentioned. I'm not sure who the person was that reported MvR "reach up, over, and forward on his guns in an attempt to re-charge them." I think one of then could give the source.

It was definitely an interesting discussion and your working knowledge of the Spandau.

Lloyd..

[BobPhil]

Dave and LLoyd,


Indeed it was I, I'll have to re-read through " The Red Baron's Last flight " by Franks and Bennett ( I believe it to be the most Accurate and Believeable account of MvR's last flight ). They recorded accounts of witness on the ground from both the British and Australians,I'll have to get back to this topic.If I remember..he was seen leaning forward and eighter trying to re-cock the gun or trying to manually advance the ammo belt,he was able to only fire a few rounds at a time ( faulty ammo or misalligned carthridges ) At the time one gun was jammed and the other had a problem with the firing mechanism....stay tuned,,,,,,,Bob

[BobPhil]

Dave'

c If I remember correctly you mentioned that MvR used a lever type device to both cock and advance. A metal rod that was used by pulling the rod towards him thus advancing and cocking the gun,this device was probably not functioning properly due to the first jam when engaged with the RE 8s of 3rd Australian Sqdn. probably his right gun....more later . Not sure if this lever device was examined or noted at Poulainville.....Bob..

[Laserlloyd]

Thank Bob for chiming in.

I wanted to post the photos as I feel that is relevant to this account.

Here is a close up of MvR Guns from after the crash.




This is a photo of MvR's guns at Lechelle, Notice the full length gun pads...This happen to be the same style fond in the last photo of 425/17.


I posted the last one for Dave as you had described the mechanism to us then I saw this photo again and wondered how he pulled the loading (what ever you call it) handle though the gun pads?

Lloyd...

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Gentlemen:
When the guns were examined, one was found to be jammed. The pictures posted were the last time those guns were seen. Afterwards, the two guns disappeared, I wonder where they are? The serial numbers were recorded, someday, they will pop up on an auction. I can only imagine their worth!
Blue skies,
Dan-San

[BobPhil]

Dave,LLoyd and Dan-san

I'm glad you posted those photos of the Baron's guns LLoyd....I could'nt find those pull levers Dave mentioned or perhaps I just did'nt see them...Dave?... This excerpt is from "The Red Barons Last Flight " by Norman Franks and Allrn Bennett ...A flimsy case fed into breech lock of left gun,695, efforts with extractor mechanism caused case to split, jam could not be cleared from the air, a number 3 stoppage. The firing pin of his right gun,1795,fractured still permitting gun to fire only two or three rounds at a time,automatic action would then cease and firing mechanism would need to be RE-COCKED MANUALLY. Our conversation at Dave's guns was centered around..how was MvR able to manually re-cock,advance the belt and fire. He was observed by ground witnesses to reach over and pound his guns with his hands..pull levers? The crank handles or cocking handle/lever, made onebackwards and forwards movement. A jam would cause the handle to cease motion in one of four positions. The position in which the handle stopped was a reliable indicator of the basic type of jam. Was MvR aware of this during the excitement of the chase of May..did he react by reaching over and pounding his left gun? When this # 3 stoppage silenced his left gun he relied on MANUALLY FIRING his right gun till this fracture of the firing pin,also made this gun inoperable,without operating guns,MvR broke off the chase and flew into history...this was the main theme of our conversations while holding and examining Dave's guns at the DPR.....Bob

[Dave_Watts]

Hi all,

Bob and Lloyd, thanks for the postings, I knew that you had the reference for the event we're talking about, and the photos are most helpful.

If we look at the first photo of the guns, we see at the very bottom of the right hand gun is a horizontal tube, this is the "pull-handle" for re-cocking/re-charging the gun. This is the handle MvR would pull to clear a dud and recharge the gun for continued firing. My posting was to dispell the "story" of MvR reaching up and over the gun to re-charge it...instead he would have pulled on the in-cockpit re-charging handle. You would not have been able to see him do this in-cockpit motion from the ground, even if level with the plane.

A couple of statements Bob posted from the book are amazing to me. "A flimsy case fed into breech lock of left gun,695, efforts with extractor mechanism caused case to split, jam could not be cleared from the air, a number 3 stoppage. The firing pin of his right gun,1795,fractured still permitting gun to fire only two or three rounds at a time,automatic action would then cease and firing mechanism would need to be RE-COCKED MANUALLY." I don't recall the guns as being listed anywhere stating which gun was the left and which the right...in the quote they state 695 as the left and 1795 as the right.

Technically, these guns should be listed as "695a" and "1795a" as that is how they were marked. The small italics "a" is an suffix representing "10,000" series, so gun number "695a" would actually be gun number "10,695" in the production of LMG 08/15's. Often more times than not, this small italics suffix was missed in observations made for captured reports therefore resulting in what we have here with the guns listed as "695" and "1795".

How do I know the guns should have had the "a" suffix? Gun numbers 695 and 1795 were manufactured in October and December of 1916. This is way too early for MvR's 425/17 which was accepted on January 8th, 1918. Whereas guns 695a and 1795a were made in October and December of 1917, which fits in perfectly.

The surviving trigger lock today, is from gun number "1795a". The firing pin is totally gone, broken off. The above quote from the book states,"The firing pin of his right gun,1795, fractured still permitting gun to fire only two or three rounds at a time,automatic action would then cease and firing mechanism would need to be RE-COCKED MANUALLY." I don't see how this is possible. If the firing pin is broken and gone, there is no more firing, period! No amount of "re-cocking" would help. Even if the pin was originally "fractured" leaving a small bit to hit the firing cap, I don't believe it would work. As said, the pin is totally gone now, and that is the norm for when they brake...they brake off.

As to " "A flimsy case fed into breech lock of left gun,695, efforts with extractor mechanism caused case to split, jam could not be cleared from the air, a number 3 stoppage". I'm not certain what this is. As I understand the "extractor mechanism" to be; is a channel at the front of the trigger lock that as it moves forward and backward in the gun with every firing of the gun the channel moves up and down vertically, this engages the next round in the ammo belt, grasps it by its rim and extracts it from the belt, from there it simply goes for a ride. I'll have to read up on a number 3 stoppage. I'm not certain what they mean by "efforts with extractor mechanism caused case to split". As I stated, the only way MvR was going to fix his gun, was to pull on the cockpit pull handle inside the cockpit. If there was a split casing that jammed in the breech, two things could have resulted; 1 - the gun simply jammed up...solid, no moving of the handles, game over, or 2 - he somehow pulled the trigger lock away from the split casing, leaving it in the breech, and then cycled the gun once with a hot round coming from the ammo belt and it jammed into the back of the jammed casing in the breech...again the gun would be locked up with no handle movement.

One more fun fact...both of the guns in the photos show the base cocking/clearing handle in the forward position, which means the trigger lock has already been removed from both guns when the officiers are inspecting the guns, and when they're resting leaned against each other.

In review the main points are;

1. I don't believe it's possible MvR would have been reaching up and over in a forward motion in an attempt to clear/recharge his guns.

2. The gun numbers are not complete, less the "a" suffix.

3. Have to look into this 3 stoppage.

4. I don't see how you can fire 3 round bursts with no firing pin.

5. I believe the guns would have been locked up.

6. From the recovered crash items, we can see the trigger locks of both guns have been removed almost immediately. This would have been very difficult to do with the split casing jam, as you would have to get something to punch out the jammed casing from the barrel.

Best,
Dave W.

[bristol scout]

Hi Dave,

Just a quickie---and if I'm 'preaching to the converted' so to say, please ignore me

There is a site which reprints the Vickers manual and thus describes No.3 stoppages (and all the rest)

It is VICKERS MACHINEGUN. ORG U.K. MANUAL 1951.

As I said, sorry if this is stuff you already know.

Dave.