Jasta 45 -Doerr and Schlegel

ivstefano · 20 November 2009, 07:21 AM

Dear friends,

Here is my reconstruction of Fokker DVII from Jasta 45.

The original photo was published in Windsock Datafiles by Ray Rimell (2000)Special Fokker D VII Anthology (2) by on page 55.
On original Black and white photo there is line up of 6 Fokker DVII and 6 Albartros fighters.
These two aircraft are first in a row – thus most probably following the fashion of the time representing the machines of highest scoring pilots/CO of the unit. These ones seam to be the most colorful aircraft in a row also.
To my opinion these are the aircraft of

Gustav Doerr (35 victories) and

Karl Schlegel (22 victories).
In the publication the noses of the aircraft are described as probably ‘black’ – I am of the opinion that they might have had been red. Karl Schlegel’s Fokker D VII was described as ‘colorful machine’ and I think that it might be the first in the row. If so ‘red’ might be more appropriate color for the nose.
Third machine in the row belongs to Urlich Koennemann and it is identified by vertical bands of white and blue. It is of the same shade as the 3 bands on the second aircraft in line.

I give a proposition for the reconstruction of these two aircraft and probable pilots that were using them in 1918.

Please be free to comment on my reconstructions attached to the post…

Cheers!

Dan_San_Abbott · 20 November 2009, 01:26 PM

Hi Ivstevano:
That is a most interesting suggestion. My thought on Jasta 45 marking was the rear fuselage and tails were all the colors, with the nose and forward fuselage in individuals colors. I shall take another look at the Jasta 45 line up and consider your suggestion. I don't think the noses were black also.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

ivstefano · 21 November 2009, 05:06 AM

Dear Dan,

I see that we are doing the same type of research - I was looking at your profiles in your gallery...

As these aircraft from Jasta 45 are not pictured so many times - I think the only possibility to do the reconstruction is to reach some consensus and at the end have 'probable' reconstruction.

It might be that first airplane belongs to Doer as the photo might have had been taken in June - while Schlegel achieved first victories in July (as I remember Doer had 5 or 6 victories in June), so there is much to consider...

Do you know who was the CO of Jasta 45 in June? The 'yellow/red' Fokker might belong to him... Doer was one of the oldest pilots in WW1 certainly the oldest in Jasta 45... Was he the CO? He was injured before and lost long time in hospital (his jaw was badly broken - perhaps the reason for his mustache)...

All the best!

Flamingo · 21 November 2009, 08:47 AM

Hi ivstefano

Your profiles look very good and interesting,
but when looking at the photographs I would interprete them slightly differently. The fuselage of the first machine appears a little too light for yellow which normally looks almost like black. And I think to see some "patches" so I would go for lozenge. Compare with the third machine.

The fuselage of the second machine appears rather dark so I would think it was completely overpainted in a dark colour with the three stripes in a medium colour.

All machines have the early low exhaust so there should be no louvres and the hand holds are angled upward.

"The Jasta Pilots" gives Ltn

Hans Rolfes as commander.

Dan_San_Abbott · 21 November 2009, 01:25 PM

Hi ivstefano:
Ltn.

Hans Joachim Rolfes, organized andformed Jasta 45 on 17 December 1917 at Altenburg. in 1912 Hans Rolfes enlisted in the Dragoner Regiment Nr.14. The colors of the Regiment is black and blue. I believe the colors of Jasta 45 is black and/or blue with white tails.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

ivstefano · 22 November 2009, 04:17 AM

So Gentlemen,

Could we go to the following reconstruction (regardless of the plane model as Mr Flamingo suggested early Fokker DVII type)-

First machine in the row is that of CO

Hans Joachim Rolfes (he had victories in June while balloon buster Shlegel had none)
Second one is that one of Doerr...

Would you take this reconstruction as more likely? Perhaps black should be very dark blue?

Jasta 45 aces are always missing in profile lists...

Cheers!

Flamingo · 22 November 2009, 07:56 AM

In my opinion now the profiles match the photographs much better!

But for precise colours we will not know for sure unless a survivor has written his memoirs or has been interviewed.

Researching former regimental colours of the commander (or his home town or country) is a more educated guess but it is still a guess.

For a model I would draw sketches of all the possibilities and then use artistic license and choose the one I like the most! Or in this case mix black and blue so it could be either blackish blue or blueish black!

bristol scout · 22 November 2009, 08:46 AM

hi Ivstefano,
I seem to see another 'band' on von Doerr's ----next to the white (under tailpane surfaces) possibly the same colour as the fuselage bands--but a little 'worn' perhaps.

might just be me--but have a close look--now that i've mentioned it...

Cheers,
Dave.

ivstefano · 22 November 2009, 08:46 AM

Thank you very much!

Well, as there is scarce info on Jasta 45 - we may just try to reach some consensus on 'what might have been'...

I hope to receive as many comments as possible... Or, hopefully, some additional info...

I think that our friend Dan_San_Abbott was searching for 'colorful machine' from Jasta 45 that belonged to Schlegel... Probably on the photo I've seen his machine was not painted in personal markings or he was still flying Albatros...

Perhaps some additional info might help us to get these reconstructions closer to reality...

Cheers!

Flamingo · 22 November 2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bristol scout

hi Ivstefano,
I seem to see another 'band' on von Doerr's ----next to the white (under tailpane surfaces) possibly the same colour as the fuselage bands--but a little 'worn' perhaps.

might just be me--but have a close look--now that i've mentioned it...

Cheers,
Dave.

Have a close look - it is in the profiles!