Cecil Lewis Planes

[Dan_San_Abbott]

Hi Dave:
I am glad to see you back. An apology was not really necessary, however it is accepted. Friends can dissagree, and still be friends.
Alex and I have had many dissagreements, but I still believe he is one of the best of British writers we have. I put him in the same bracket as Jack Bruce.
Greg and I have had a few dissagreements, but they are unimportant. If I could have picked a son, I would have picked Greg.
Again, it good to see you back, now if we can get Russ reinstated, we could get the show on the road.
Blue skies, my Friend,
Dan-San

[Ginger.]

Oh, hum! Can't wait for normal service to be resumed and everyone getting back to bickering again!

[bristol scout]

Originally Posted by Ginger.

Oh, hum! Can't wait for normal service to be resumed and everyone getting back to bickering again!

Just you wait 'till David pop's up with his 'irrefutable' PC10 'evidence' me owld mate....

Dave.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Originally Posted by bristol scout

Just you wait 'till David pop's up with his 'irrefutable' PC10 'evidence' me owld mate....

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Again, you choose to misrepresent what I have said and try to discredit me. That is not a professional attitude. I started the PC 10 thread in an attempt to end the debate and bickering about PC 10, and to allow people to have an intelligent discussion on the subject. I had a lot of trouble with two different digital cameras, and when I bought a new digital camera it took me a while to work out how to download photographs from it. Now that I have sorted that out, I have not mastered how to reduce the original image size so that it can be posted on this site but not so much that no real detail can be seen.

You are the only person who has ever mentioned the word irrefutable. My intention is to have an intelligent discussion on the subject of PC 10, not to offer irrefutable evidence. The fact that you choose to ignore the evidence I have presented in conjunction with other evidence I have not been able to present for various reasons is counter productive. If you were serious about learning about PC 10 you would refrain from making such sarcastic remarks which are clearly aimed at antagonising anyone who has a view which differs from yours. I have, and have access to quite a few original samples of PC 10, some of which have serial numbers associated with them, and one of which is an authentic serial number. Every time I see a statement such as "PC 10 was brown, it was not green" I am amazed and disturbed that such a noted expert could make such a statement. It really makes any of us who have carried out any research on the subject of PC 10 wonder how such a misleading statement could possibly be made. The issue could be due simply to different terminology or even individual perception of colours, as one member suggested. Aerodrome member Sheppo told me that many or maybe even most of the accepted colour samples given for PC 10 are contained in the green section of the Methuen Handbook of Colour. I don't have a book to refer to readily but I have no reason to disbelieve him, since he has demonstrated over the years that his research (and building efforts by the way) are world class and I happen to know that he has seen some of the best PC 10 samples in the world, as well as some of my samples.

It may be difficult or impossible for you to accept the fact that TVAL, for example have painted their SE5a's in a much greener shade of PC 10 than you believe to be correct, but I happen to know that they do their research as well, and many original PC 10 samples I have seen have been a similar colour to the shade they have used, particularly if they have been protected from the weather, and the effects of ageing, as far as this is in fact possible.

[Ginger.]

Seeing as how we're talking about Cecil Lewis's aircraft. Was he mistaken in referring to 56 Squadron's SEs as 'chocolate brown' in colour?

[alex_revell]

Dave,
I hadn't seen Romani's 'glee' at Russ's banning, but it has a positive result in that it shows us the kind of person he is and we can now judge his pronouncements accordingly.

[Brez]

Originally Posted by Ginger.

Seeing as how we're talking about Cecil Lewis's aircraft. Was he mistaken in referring to 56 Squadron's SEs as 'chocolate brown' in colour?

Eleven chocolate-coloured, lean, noisy bullets, lifting, swaying, turning, rising into formation - two fours and a three - circling and climing away steadily towards the lines.
Cecil Lewis.

When all at once I saw a crowd, A host, of golden daffodils.
William Wordsworth.

Lewis and Wordworth - they were both right.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Hi Ginger,

That is a very interesting and valid point you have brought up, and one which has been brought up before. There certainly are several such references, and to be honest they cause me a lot of confusion. Such a first hand account should not and must not be dismissed lightly. Every piece of evidence must be considered on its' merits. Any such description can only be a generalisation, since Cecil Lewis or anyone else giving a brief description is very unlikely to say something like "the squadrons' SE5a's were chocolate brown with a hint of green". It is entirely possible that there are shades of PC 10 which are brown with no trace of green in them, however I have never seen evidence of such a shade - by which I mean an authentic PC 10 sample. I have seen plenty of PC 10 which is quite brown, but in every case I have seen, this has been due to weathering and / or ageing. I have three samples I can think of from very late war time production aeroplanes - one from an SE5a, one from a DH9 and one from a Vickers Vimy. They are quite a dark brown with hardly a trace of green, however for all samples they are much greener where protected areas are examined. The Vickers Vimy sample is the best, since the front face is much more brown than traces of PC 10 which have leached through the fabric, which are very green. PC 10 samples which have had any level of protection during their lifetime are relatively rare, and difficult to obtain. I have made an effort to specifically collect such samples, and some illustrate the effects of ageing and weathering beautifully.

Cheers,

David.

[bristol scout]

Could it have been NIVO David---I have asked you this before but you have decided not to answer----

Your own latest sample fabric posted a few months ago looked decidedly BROWN!

As for me "misrepresenting"---Well let us see what you said back then whilst "busting the myth"--

"it became obvious to me..."

"I had a long held belief"

"yes, you are right unfortunately, there will always be debate about PC10---but it is quite unneccessary..."

Have you read Flypapers Huntley documents---"Brown Predominated" "PC10 (C&D) VERY DARK BROWN".

You have not (yet) "busted your supposed Mythology"

Looking forward with an "open mind" to more samples David---BUT, as the great Carl Sagan would have said---My mind NOT so open that my brains fall out!

Proof----I need proof ONLY if you claim I have been labouring under the baleful spell of mythology----I need more than your "long held belief"---because what makes it any more 'learned' than the 'long held belief' of others...??

Dave----wishing you well, as always.

['14-'18aviationcollector]

Could which sample be NIVO? I did not decide not to answer that question. I cannot keep up with every question, and you and Dan - San have conveniently decided not to answer far more questions than I have overlooked. Just tonight I made my offer again to send you some colour chips so that you can see the green shade for yourself, but you don't want to believe that PC 10 can have the slightest shade of green, so you will never provide an address for me to send the colour chips to.

The photograph of the fabric sample is brown where it has been weathered, and has a distinctly green shade where it has been protected. I have the original sample, so you can make all the statements about brown PC 10 that you would like to, but where it has been protected from weathering, it has a distinctly green cast. The colour references are there so that people can adjust the settings on their monitor, or make any other adjustments as required. I did not choose the colour chips included in the photo, but still, they are a reference point. Even the phrase "brown predominated" does not mean it is only brown. Very late war samples I have are very green where they have been protected.

You have mis-quoted the phrase that I used about having a long held belief. I went on to say that further investigation shows that even the latest war time PC 10 samples I have been able to find demonstrate the same green tendencies seen in earlier samples.