Lafayette Escadrille and N-28s

Nieuport28 · 8 February 2003, 03:43 PM

Ed. Parsons mentions the use of the '28s for a brief period by the Lafayette Escadrille. Does anyone have a source of phots that would show them with the LE Indian Head insignia?
Thank you..

Cliff · 9 February 2003, 04:35 PM

Nieuport

I've also seen references (no pics) to N28's in the L.E. but I find it VERY unlikely.
The N28 was in prototype testing until late 1917 when the French Air Service decided to go with the SPAD 13 as the standard fighter. An initial production run was cancelled and it wasn't until the U.S. ordered 297 that any more were made. No French squadron ever recieved the N28 and the first U.S. Aero Sqns. started to get them in late Feb. 1918. By this time the Lafayette Esc. had become the U.S. 103rd. Their aircraft at that time were SPADs.
So, except for a couple of protoypes there weren't any N28's around to supply to the L.E.

Cliff

Billy_Bishop · 12 February 2003, 04:49 PM

I have a booklet from Squadron/Signal Publications, Nieuport Fighters in action, Aircraft Number 167.

In it is a picture of a Nieuport 28, and the caption above says this Nieuport 28 was "said" to be in French service.

Now, this is interesting on several counts.

Two side panels behind the engine are missing. Also the left machine gun and the shelf it would sit on are gone as well. The tail number appears to be N 5246, there is a large number 4 on the fuselage, and because of the lighting and angle, the national markings on the bottom wing cannot be determined. It does have the standard tricolor on the tail.. And, sitting in the background appears to be a Sopwith Camel.

Something that appears to be strange to me, the Camel appears to have a French Roundel on the lower wing. Now, this is just my intrepretation of a BW photo, but figuring that red would appear lighter than Blue, that's how it looks.

Maybe these are actually movie planes???

VBR,

Al

Cigogne · 14 February 2003, 09:53 AM

Al,

Squadron Signal books aren't the most carefully researched. I think it is in error that the Aviation Militaire used the type. Also, red photographs DARKER than blue in orthochromatic photographs. The darkest portion of the roundel would be red. Now, that said, let's talk about that Camel.

The First Pursuit Group included the 27th, 94th, 95th, and 147th Aero Squadrons, all flying Nieuport 28s until July when SPADs were received. There was an additional squadron formed that became a part of the First Pursuit Group, namely the 185th Aero Squadron that flew 160 h.p. Gnome engined Sopwith Camels. Maybe this photo shows them at a repair depot being worked on. Maybe they are aircraft of the First Pursuit Group.

Cigogne

Cigogne

Cigogne · 14 February 2003, 09:56 AM

Hey, what happened to all of the posts on this string from earlier this week? Was there a server crash and this is the backup? Hmmm, hate to have to retype all that was said here. Anybody else notice that?

Cigogne

Gregvan · 16 February 2003, 06:53 AM

Al and Cigogne,

Yup, Peter Cooksley was in error when he ascribed this battered Mieuport 28 to the "French Air Service" in the Squadron/Signal book. I imagine he had the unlabeled photo in his files and simply decided to use it.

I'm going entirely on memory here, but this is a former movie airplane. At the time it was photographed I believe it (and the Camel) was part of Colonel Jarrett's personal museum somewhere on the east coast of the USA (NY or NJ). Jarrett had acquired quite a few ex-movie airplanes, as well as lots of ordinance and a Renault Tank. Some of these became the nucleus of Cole Palen's first collection (including, I think, this Nieuport). When photographed, the Nieuport still bore the spurious markings that had been applied for display purposes for publicity for "Men with Wings" (or maybe even that horrible "Lafayette Escadrille " movie ?). In "Men with Wings" a number of Garland-Lincoln "Nieuports" and other "Allied" planes were painted up in the "black cat" markings of director Bill Wellman's old French unit Esc. 87. The spectacular color footage of these planes in combat with Travelair "Wichita Fokkers" and one genuine D.VII was later re-used (in black & white !) for the "Lafayette Escadrille" movie. Both Paul Mantz' Spad VII and , I believe, this Nieuport 28, were painted up with pseudo-French camouflage and black cat markings for publicity photos, but were not actually flown in the films.

I think this photo was probably taken sometime in the late 40's or 50's. Somebody on this forum with a lot more knowledge of Col. Jarrett's collection and movie a/c can add more, and probably correct me too. However, there's NO WAY this is an actual wartime photo of a Nieuport 28 in "French service". The serial number is , I believe, entirely bogus.

Greg

Cliff · 16 February 2003, 01:34 PM

Al / Greg
WW1 Survivors by Ray Rimell lists 'N5246' as an ex-Tallmantz survivor that is 'now' in the U.K.

Cliff

baldeagle · 16 February 2003, 03:25 PM

* * As far as I know the only thing that Cole Palen got that was from the Jarrett collection was the Renault tank. *His Nieuport 28 did I believe come from Tallman but wasn't ex-Jarrett, that one I think went to Tallman, ended up being restored in the UK in the '90s(and featured in the Windsock Datafile for the N.28), and is now in the Army Aviation Museum in Ft. Rucker, Alabama.

Gregvan · 16 February 2003, 04:00 PM

Thanks Baldeagle,

I knew someone with better info than I would come through.

Greg