Jasta 1

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,

No I haven’t seen your thread , excuse my naivety but how do I find it as it sounds interesting? I’m not sure how to look up the archieves!

Re the demise of Vfw Behling you suggest the two seater crew from 18 Sqn but Graeme puts forward a good case for Capt R Oxspring of 66 Sqn.

Likewise Vfw Behling kia, was very likely victim of the other 18 Sqn crew of Lt H Boustead & 2Lt RJ Smith, the latter expending 450 rounds which saw two EA scouts go down apparently OOC.

11 March – another possibility for the loss of Behling is Capt R Oxspring of 66 Sqn who claimed a two-seater that broke up 13:30 (German time) over Bapaume; Bihucourt is about three miles north-west of Bapaume.

Can you two guys sort this one out!

Happy Hunting
Joe

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Well if you have not read that thread (just punch 'Erkenbretch' into search), how then did you come by your ammended wisdom re 32 Sqn & Js 12? In regards Behling & 18 Sqn, that's my feedback, take it or leave it.

Cheers Russ

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,

I have tried searching for Erkenbretch as you suggested but the only one it shows is your last post? What am I doing wrong?

Re Well if you have not read that thread (just punch 'Erkenbretch' into search), how then did you come by your amended wisdom re 32 Sqn & Js 12?

Simple answer, British Single-Seater Fighter Sqds on the Western Front in WW1 by Alex Revell published in 2006, page 55.

Alex Revell also offers the following re Vfw Behling.
This is taken from the combat that 32Sqn had with Jasta 12
Second Lt. G Howe fired a full drum of Lewis into one enemy scout from very close range. The pilot was seen to throw up his hands and fall forward onto his controls. The Albatros went down out of control and crashed. Foot notes say; Possibly Ofstv Alfred Behling of Jasta 1 killed between Biefvillers and Bihucourt. This seems to be a reasonably god case.

For those of you following these discussions I will be off line for approx. 2.5 weeks, while I may access my emails I will not be able to answer them as I will not have access to my own PC.

My wife and I are off on our 35th wedding anniversary holiday. 25years we went to Cuba, 30 and we organised our own safari in Tanzania and Zanzibar. So for our 35th we are off to, well for all you history buffs work it out.

After landing we drive to Spion Kop, next day to Isandlwana and Rourkes Drift (named after another Irish man). Then a 2 hour internal flight to George followed by a 30minute drive to Wilderness (on the beach) then to a wine producing area and eventually ending up in ‘Batman’s ‘Town.

I’m sure that you all got it after Rourkes Drift!

Happy Hunting

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Alex Revell's BSSFS - excellent book. Maybe you should check the credits and it might dawn on you who passed that resolution onto Alex

By the way I have the 32 Sqn SRB for that day and only Capt Robb was actually wia (legs), whilst 2Lt Howe only had a cut eye from shattered goggles - the other three were all injured as a result of having to force land in the mangled mess of the Somme battlefield.

That said I envy you, I would most deffinately love to walk the Isandlwana battlefield. Have you read Snooks more recent book on the battle How Can a Man Die Better? I think it is an excellent read. And funny Zulu was on cable TV here just last night - got ropped in as always.

As to the seach engine - I often pull my hair out.

Cheers & usutu Russ

[Joe M]

HI Russ,
You were spot on, usutu! We visited Spion Kop (Anglo Boer), Isandlwana and Rourkes Drift. I was really looking forward to Rourkes Drift but Isandlwana was the most poignant and unforgettable! Our Battlefield Guide was Rob Gerrard FRGS, resident historian at the Isandlwana Lodge. He had both my wife and I close to tears on the Isandlwana battlefield. If you would like some photos from Isandlwana please let me know and I will forward some to you separately.

I will have to look up Snooks book on the battle How Can a Man Die Better. I have not read this one.

Re the death of Vfw Behling you suggest the two seater crew from 18 Sqn but Alex Revell offers the following, again from British Single-Seater Fighter Sqds on the Western Front in WW1.
This is taken from the combat that 32Sqn had with Jasta 12
Second Lt. G Howe fired a full drum of Lewis into one enemy scout from very close range. The pilot was seen to throw up his hands and fall forward onto his controls. The Albatros went down out of control and crashed. Foot notes say; Possibly Ofstv Alfred Behling of Jasta 1 killed between Biefvillers and Bihucourt. This seems to be a pretty good case.

Happy Hunting
Joe

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Yes I think Isandlwana would be very moving particularly around the saddle where the bulk of the 1/24th fought it out to the last man.

As to Behling - as always we are hamstrung by the patchy nature of the surviving German record - a time would sought things out. That said, for my money taking into account times and locations; the 32 Sqn line patrol was most likely engaged by Js 12. Whereas the 5 FE's of 18 & 23 Sqn were assailed by Js 5 & Js 1 with the FAA 261 & SS 3 pair feeding on the scraps. You should bare in mind that several of the 32 Sqn DH2's were brought down yet there were no fatal casualties, and indeed only one of the four downed FE's involved fatalities - so why should one believe Behling & Erkenbretch were the only Jasta pilots downed or hit in these combats?

You might want to consider Js 1's 4 Mar 17 scrap with 3 Naval - both FC Vernon & FSL Wigglesworth claimed EA as OOC in this fight and an article on Malone by SK Taylor in an early OTF tells us that an inquiery was later made in regards the two missing 3 Naval pilots and French civilians of Inchy en Artois were also able to confirm that FSL Wambolt was attacked by 4 EA and either fell or jumped from his machine, but also that two of the German machines were also brought down in the fighting - one at Cagnicourt and the other at Baralle!!!!! Just because this is not reflected in the Grub St corpus does not mean that Js 1 did not at the least have two of their pilots forced down.

Cheers Russ

[Joe M]

Thanks Russ, will check it out when at home over the weekend and get back to you.
Re the Photos, interested??
Happy Hunting
Joe

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Back to me? OK for clarity below is a transcription of hand written 32 Sqn SRB:

Capt Robb, Lt Pickthorne & 2Lt Howe at 7,500ft
2Lt Randall, 2Lt Young & 2Lt Cross at 5,500ft

9 EA seen E Bapaume at 10,000ft (3 formations of 3) 10.05.
Rear three EA dived on Capt Robb's formation. Pickthorne fired short burst at about 20yds range and EA sideslipped away emitting smoke from both sides of machine - 2Lt Howe observed this EA lower down completely in flames! 2Lt Howe was attacked by an EA which overshot him and fired a drum at 20yds - 10yds range - pilot seen to throw his hands up and fall forward the EA falling completely OOC - goggles hit by bullet and eye cut.
Lower formation attacked by EA at 10.10. 2Lt Young's gun soon jambed but continued out manouvre EA until attacked by second EA who put his engine out - followed down by 2 EA to 2,000ft and force landed between lines. 2Lt Randall who was experiencing engine trouble attacked EA on tail of DH2 firing double drum at 5yds range EA sideslipped away nose down - out of control. 2Lt Randall attacked by other EA which he engaged firing another double drum, when his engine failed completely forcing him to make for lines - followed down to 1,000ft by 2 EA - landed in support trenches tearing off undercarridge and turning over.

There was no imput from Capt Robb, as he had been wounded in legs and made a forced landing at La Boiselle. Likewise Lt Pickthorne suffered an engine failure on return flight and force landed at Acheux writting off his DH2. 2Lt Young was only injured in his crash at Irles, not wia as in TSTBF. 2Lt Cross also injured in attempted ftl of his shot up DH2 at Eacourt L'Abaye.

Pointedly the Js 12 Ltn Schulte claim of an 'FE' is at 1105GT (1005BT)and in same area as 32 Sqn combat. Though not timed, so too Vfw Grigo's 'Vickers-1' and Erkenbrecht's 'Vickers' - S & SE of Grevilliers (this was captured by British & Aust troops on following day.)

The timed Js 1 & Js 5 claims are quite 40-45 minutes later and match 18 Sqn & 23 Sqn's combat and this is the reason why I do not feel von Stenglin's untimed u/c 'Vickers' is not in the 32 Sqn mix

Pitty we rarely have this level of detail for German side of things

Oh yes very interested in Isandlwana photos.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

A little more claity re 18 Sqn & 23 Sqn:

'On exstensive photo operation near Bapaume his formation of 5 a/c was repeatedly attacked by EA, each British machine being attacked by at least 3 EA and all shot down except Smith and his pilot. Smith fired 450 rounds in succesive combats.' 5 Bde RFC report.

" 2 FE's going down east of Bapaume. One appeared to be out of control but being heavily attacked, and the other seemed in flames." report Smith & Boustead re 23 Sqn machines.

The FE in flames was most probably 7713 which was hit in engine at 10,500ft and driven down to north east of Bapaume - Pilot 2Lt CA Shum actually climed out onto wingtips! Coops was knocked unconscious in crash. A 5443 was hit on propellor and forced to land at Morchies (this is N of Beugny)

As to 18 Sqn, I know the grave of 2Lt Headly (A 5475) was later found at map reference Sh57c B21 b.4.5 - remember British Fourth & Fifth Army's were agressivly probing forward to new Hindenberg line. Again a trench map would help.

Now what Mr Merrill, or indeed JWC, does not tell you; is that Gontermann's Vickers claim south of Bapaume was jenseits (other side) and CANNOT represent 7713 - if anything, like v Stenglin's claim, it must reflect 18 Sqn's A745 which FTL Brit side and was shelled - 2Lt Lewis broken legs & Lt Mayberry chest wound.

Also it is worth pointing out that Ostv Nathanael ' FE2 north of Beugny was, as one would suspect, a diesseits' claim and more likely represents 7713. And whilst chronologically his 2nd, it was actually recorded as his 6th (sometime in April). Moreover it is not recorded in Natrichtemblatt for 11 Mar 17, which says to me that this was a delayed confirmation, suggestive of a dispute with the FAA 261 crew of Vfw Kosmahl & Obln Neuberger. One might also suppose that the Vfw Hoppe claim represents an unsuccessful dispute with the Schusta 3 crew of Vfw Hengst & Ltn Creige over A5443. Who says rank has no privillege.

Also Lt Boustead's & Lt Smith's 1145 OOC claim was seen to crash! And in addition to their 2nd OOC, three others were seen by them driven down in the fighting.

Cheers Russ

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,
Still trying to untangle the 11 March in my head. Talk about confusion........!
Re the 1st of Jan 1918 which seems to be the next one to digest, thanks to both you and Graeme for the information on death of Karl Lange, both of you agree that it was Capt.W G Barker 45 Sqn.
I am sorting out the photo's at the moment and will forward them to you presently.
Happy Hunting.
Joe