Jasta 1

[R Gannon]

Digit

The extra visibility provided by your still secretive diarist re 14 Aug 18 does allow for a re-think. Of course previously with only the time and type given as 'BF' in regards Staudacher's #1 it was difficult to pin it to anything - it certainly was not a Bristol F2b nor could it have been a DH4 as per Kofl 17 confirmation, but if one allows a little latitude on the part of the German perceptions, then one might offer the possibility of 87 Sqn's Lt RA Hewat (Can) who went missing on Dolphin E4434 after having left at 0925BTon a lone Special Mission between Arras & Albert. This would fit the location (Cerisy German side, as opposed to near Arras - British side) & time frame of the Js 1 action, further baring in mind German airmen often mis-identified Dolphins as 2-seaters. Moreover that the Js 1 kette was attacked by this '2-seater' (sic) from their own rear area.

Of course, a single Dolphin taking on four Fokkers, 6km over the German side was brave but yes foolhardy. Hewat was an experienced pilot credited with 6 victories, but had been wounded during his tour with 19 Sqn in Oct 17 having followed a 2-seater he had driven down low over German lines and was subsequently was hit by ground fire - again one might suggest brave, but foolhardy.

Maybe you might supply the Js 1 diarists account of 22 Aug 18, as again we are faced with the problem of identifying who were the objects of the Jasta's three claims on this date.

Cheers Russ

PS Come on! No sharing of victories amongst Jasta pilots? Only recently on the other site I outlined to you the case of the double booking of 12 deisseit Luftseiges over only 6 downed RFC machines on 28 July 17 And of course even if the connection between Staudacher & Hewat is correct, one can see that whilst Staudacher got the ultimate credit, it is evident the success was due to the fact it was four against one!

[digit]

1) For the 22th of August 1918 our diarist wrote 4 pages.

2) Whatever you like to construct: no shared victories among German Jasta Pilots. I'm not allowed to answer you on the other site.

3) Wasn't there a 'glorious' fight of six British against one German a year before (23.9.17)?

[R Gannon]

Digit

1. Actually I jumped a pair - 21 Aug - Stadacher & Weidemann both at 1645 - the diarist visibility would be most heplfull, as again they are not easily rationalised.

2. Re double booking of German victories on 28 Jul 17 - no problem; next visit I'll outline them again here, allowing you every opportunity to respond.

3. Back to your hobby horse I see, well I'm always game so let me see in regards odds on that fateful evening of 23 Sep 17:

I think you will find that first it was 3 against 1 - Voss and his two wingmen attempting to pick off Hammersly, the 60 Sqn srtaggler, as he wa attempting to recross the lines. Then Childlaw Roberts went to Hammersly's aid making it 3 against 2 and so one of the wingmen decided he had somewhere else to be. Then JTB arrived with Cronyn & RD, allowing the damaged 60 Sqn boys to disentangle and making the new odds 2 against 3, but clearly this was too much for the other wingman and he too left Voss in the lurch. But luckily Js 8's Wendlmuth was nearby and made of much stronger stuff - so now 2 againt 3. The engine of Croyns' SE (already damaged by Flak by the way) chocked in his dive and zoom and consequently he got brassed up by Voss, making it 2 against 2. But then Bowman arrived with Hoidge & Maybery making the odds 2 against 5 - and that was the state of play for the end game - it was NEVER six against 1.

Cheers Russ

[Old Man]

Originally Posted by R Gannon

...that fateful evening of 23 Sep 17...

Dear God, Sir, say we're not back to Voss, please....

[R Gannon]

Old Man

I hope not, but I feel for the sake of accuracy, the point had to be made.

Cheers Russ

[R Gannon]

Digit

Whilst this diverges away from Jasta 1, this is another issue I would like to present, as it is central to much of what we debate; the issue of German claiming system and the myths that have grown up around it:

Four examples from 28 Jul 17

A 5 strong 29 Sqn escort to a 21 Sqn machine attacked 5 'red' Alb scouts (from formation of 9) at 8,000ft over Gheluveldt at 1100BT. Lt Cudmore aided by Lt Hawgood & Sgt Hervey Bathhurst sent one down in pieces which was seen to crash - Js 11 Ltn Neiderhoff kia. They returned however without 2Lt Campbell on B1678 - the ONLY LOSS YET he appears to have been credited to BOTH Js 6's Ltn Adam #9 AND Js 3's Ltn Schmidt #8 - both credited with a Nieuports at Becelaere, at 1210GT!!!

Later that same day a 6 strong bombing formation of 57 Sqn DH4's was assailed by EA scouts over its target Ingelmunster (25km German side). Three failed to return - A7538, A7448 & A7540. Yet Js 6 was awarded SIX luftseiges over DH4's / RDD-2 all the same general Ingelmuster area 1850-1910GT - Dostler two and one each to Adam, Stock, Tuxen & Czermak!!!! There are NO OTHER LOSSES which can remotely match.

One hour later C flight of 70 Sqn & C Flight of 56 Sqn engaged numerous Alb scouts over Roulers (16km German side), the fighting spilling back to Polygon Wood - their opponents came from Js 4, Js 8, Js 10, Js 11, Js 18 & Js 26 - it hardly needs for me to say on who's side the odds were!!!!!! That said and fighting well over German side, only two 70 Sqn Camel's failed to return - the much photographed B3828 & B7824. Yet it would appear credit was given to Js 4's v Boegnicke #2, Js 11's Mohnicke #4 (both Moorslede 2100GT!) as well as Js 10's Weigand (Roulers 2115) & Js 26's Auer (Moorslede 2120). Again these were the only possible losses for these claims, which I may add were all diesseits claims! By the way the out-numberred RFC boys gave a good account of themselves - accounting for Js 18's Nolte kia & Js 8's Stenzel kia, whilst we also know Js 18's Jahn made a forced landing with shot up motor (one those non-casualty producing downings, which so often go un-recorded)!

So in all these three actions resulted in 12 confirmed Luftseiges against only 6 RFC losses - all German side.

And just for good measure, on same day, but further south a 3 strong 40 Sqn patrol clashed with 7 Albatros of Js 12 to east of Lens (German side naturally). In this scrapping the Nieuport of Lt Tudhope was set on fire, but he dived away and extinguished the flames returning safely to base (indeed no aircraft cas report was needed). He was claimed and credited as von Tutschek's 20th - but at least this was a jenseits claim!

Digit, how do you explain all this?

Cheers Russ

[digit]

14.8. 18 "…it is evident the success was due to the fact it was four against one!" sounds a bit whining and less realistic. Let's think of an agressor in an advantageous position, diving on the Kette of four Fokker D VII - but the agressor failed and paid with his life when Staudacher was chasing him and set him in flames. Our diarist was not involved directly and the attacked Fokker D VII was lucky enough to zoom away, avoiding the streamline of bullets from the agressor. The 23.9.17 was only a foot note re whining, deliberately no name was used.

And for the next: Shared victories were not allowed among German Jasta Pilots. There is no interest to debate any construction, if the post above should be one. Shared victories boosted officially the British victories.

[R Gannon]

Digit

Quite correct, there was no shared victories amongst Jasta pilots - but the hard evidence, as is demonstrated by the 28 Jul 17 examples, shows there was considerable double booking - shared victories in all but name. 18 Mar 18 is another great example, which I detailed elsewhere here in Forum.

Pointedly the double bookings in the 28 Jul 17 example were in in regards claims by officers!!!! Is there something in that? An officers word perhaps? Maybe NCO's tossed a coin or rolled a diece as Mai tells us, but it seems things wern't so cordial amongst officers. I have a copy of the original Bodenchatz JG I KTB, and it is interesting, even with my limited understanding of German, that MvR whilst in hospital after his 6 Jul 17 wounding, had to arbitrate on upwards of 10 contested claims from within the Jasta's of his own JG!!!! Clearly there was no brotherly behaviour between JG I Jasta's, when it came to pursuing official credit for victories. And these are yet another pointer to the fact that a great number of actually downed Allied planes, were as the result of the efforts of more than just the pilot who eventually got the credit, just as the Js 1 14 Aug 18 example shows. Again I ask; who's system was more transparent? One might also ask: did the German's create their own Frankenstien's monster, when they put a victory value on the much covetted OPleM????

And as I, and several others have endlessly demonstrated, your endless assertions; that that British shared victories boosted official scores is nothing but your demonstrably flawed opinion. I challenge you to provide examples where shared victories increments appear as whole victories in either British squadron lists or official daily tallies. The same however cannot be said for these inconvieniet German double bookings , as they do indeed inflate the daily Luftstreikraft claims.

This is not whinning mate, simply stating, what are clearly to some -inconvenient truths.

Cheers Russ

[digit]

Not to highjack the Jasta 1 thread further:

1) open a new thread "British Shared Victories".

2) thanks to Scott for his excellent website all readers have the opportunity to compare. Let us begin, for example, with the famous 56th Sqn and jumping to their second ace Reginald Theodore Carlos Hoidge. Have a look at the end: 3 victories ( 2 OOC, 1 DES) boosted up to 11 victories via sharing among 9 British pilots.

3) Offer a graphic: "British Shared Victories" versus "German Double Booking".

4) Then let's talk about the relationship between the shared victories and the double booking (if there was something like that) of the Germans. Humans as we are: was there also a double booking by the British?

To give a small inside what is to be expected: the five leading aces of 56 Squadron claimed 16 victories, which were boosted into 47 victories, compared to German victories, via the official British Sharing System.

All quiet at the British researcher front, yesterday, today, tomorrow, about this inflation of individual British victories.

[Graeme]

digit

There was no inflation of a squadron's total victories by the inclusion of shared pilots' claims. I have demonstrated on many occasions that six pilots claiming a share in the destruction of three enemy machines increases each pilot's tally by three, increases the squadron's tally by three and increases the service's tally by three.

There is simply no justification for claiming that in this scenario the British inflated this to 18 "victories".

As an example:

From RAF Communiqué 5 (for 3 May 1918):

A patrol of 74 Sqn engaged an EA two-seater and all fired at it from close range, whereupon the EA went down in a spin and was seen to crash. The following officers took part in the combat: Capt E Mannock, Lt H E Dolan, Lt A C Kiddie and Lt H G Clements.

This engagement resulted in Mannock's 22nd victory, Dolan's 6th, Kiddie's 2nd and Clements' 2nd. It is also listed as the 14th victory for No 74 Squadron. No inflation here, just one machine claimed by four pilots, one added to each pilot's total, one added to the squadron's total and one added to the RAF's total.

'nuff said.

Graeme