Jasta 1

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,

Re the Fokker that was brought down by Hughes;
1. First of all it was brought down in the British lines.
2. The pilot as wounded and taken prisoner.
3. I have checked Casualties of the German Air Service; The Jasta War Chronology and the Jasta Pilots and they all agree that it was Flg Otto Wagner of Jasta 79.
4. I have checked on the other recorded losses as per the Jasta War Chronology and none of them seem to fit the bill.
5. Finally in The Royal Air Force Communiques 1918, no. 23 it confirms that the pilot was forced to land on the British side of the lines.

As it quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck I would have to say that it was Flg Otto Wagner of Jasta 79. None of the other recorded German losses were taken prisoner.

You seem to think otherwise so who do you think it was?

Happy Hunting
Joe

PS Have not had time yet to go through’ your other comments yet. Will do as soon as I can

[R Gannon]

Joe

So it's back to being the Grub St expert - it's a bit like the allusion of Fok DVII's turning greenhorns into aces. Please don't get me wrong but, I think the Grub St corpus represents a really great step forward that all WW1 air war enthusiasts have benifitted from, but as I have said time and again, they cannot be held up as the final word. And it should be no surprise that the three quoted sources all say the same re Wagner, as they are by the same authors! But again go back to your sources and find where Js 79 was based on 4 Sep and then locate it on a map and then explain to me how on earth Wagner could have been downed in an engagement to the west of Cambrai? Indeed go to Jasta Pilots's G numbers listing (which simply mirrors what was postulated way, way back in C&C US) and look at the names of many a Jasta pilots being attributed as pilots of G number fighters (particularly for 1918) and ask yourself why so many are from units that arn't even operating with the German ARMEE's facing the British.

And to demonstrate the falibility of your sources, why do we not have a name for the Fokker pilot brought down in British lines by Maj Collishaw (then 203 Sqn) on 5 Sep 18 - baring in mind the wreck was apparently sent to the UK - which also beggars what was the G number?

Happy Hunting

Russ

PS As to Hughes victim, a hint; try and locate Ligny St Flochel on a map.

PPS Re my earlier comments, please spare me comparing what I have written with what you find written up in BABS - I know what it says and if what I have written disagrees with BABS, then for once, try to understand that it is most likely for very sound reasons.

[Joe M]

Hi Russ
Re your direction below to the victim of Lt Huges

PS As to Hughes victim, a hint; try and locate Ligny St Flochel on a map.

I take it that you are suggesting Uffz. Hans Reimers of Jasta 6; the problem that I have with this is as far as I can see he is listed as KIA while in The Royal Air Force Communiques 1918, no. 23 it confirms that the pilot was forced to land on the British side of the lines and taken prisoner!

Back to you.
Happy Hunting
Joe

[R Gannon]

Joe

But once again you are relying on your useful but limited sources. For your information Ligny St Flochel is on the Arras - St Pol road just 7 km SE of St Pol - well inside British lines - not the place where he was shot down on 4 Sep 18, but clearly where he died of wounds (clearly as a prisoner) on the following day. Moreover I have a photo copy of the JG I KTB from 1935 orignial JIFH by Bodenchatz and in regards Reimers it states 'vom frontflug nicht zurudgekehrt' which roughly translates as not returned from a front flight - in other words the German equivilent of missing.

Moving on; do you have any thoughts or objections in regards my points in relation to Js 1's claims in Sep 18 as I want to push onto Oct 18?

Russ

PS Also keen to crack on with Js 2, Oh sorry Js B. Are you thinking of posting another listing compiled by your mentor, or do you want to take the safer course and just work our way through what is in the Grub St corpus?

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,

Sorry for delay in replying but due to pressures in work and at home I have only been dipping into the Aerodrome and replying to relatively easy threads.

Re below
22 Sep 18 - Vfw Belz given as 'RE8' over Cambrai at 0855GT. Simply cannot be 53 Sqn's C2506 - operating with British Second Army 80 km to north. Moreover hit by ground fire and returned to its base at Proven. In addition, one would doubt that a Corps machine would be operating so far over German lines. Time and location data suggests a scrap with 87 Sqn Dolphins - no losses either way - can have only been a moral victory.

I have had time to see if I could find anything to add to or refute above but you make a pretty good case for a 'moral' victory over an 87 Sqn. Dolphin. Capt. H.A.R. Biziou claimed at least one if not two aircraft in a scrap with some Fokker’s DVII's at 8.40am which for all that it matters is the approx. time that 53 Sqn's RE8 was hit.

These victories claimed by Capt. Biziou also look like 'moral' victories.

Looking into the others, hope to be back soon

Happy Hunting

Joe M

[R Gannon]

'The Britishers, at that time, were shooting our planes down at the rate of 20, yes 30 and even 40 a day.'
Lothar Von Richthofen see OTF Vol 10 #4

Joe

Baing in mind the incomplete nature of German records in regards their own downings, how can you be so sure Biziou's claims were only moral victories?

Russ

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,
Re your comment below;

Baring in mind the incomplete nature of German records in regards their own downing’s, how can you be so sure Biziou's claims were only moral victories?

As you so nicely put it ‘So it's back to being the Grub St expert’ and ‘But once again you are relying on your useful but limited sources’.

Relying on the info above I have no reason to believe that Biziou’s claims were anything but moral victories.

Happy Hunting
Joe M

[R Gannon]

Joe

So I take it you cannot believe that German planes could have been brought down? That you would rather hide behind the polygot threadbare wisdom that constitutes KNOWN German losses! I believe you mentioned earlier that you had been gifted Patrick Kennedy's collection of C&C US. If so, then track down the two histories of Jasta 24 & Jasta 35 which were based on surviving original KTB's. And what you will see are a goodly number of combat crash & forced landings, which did not result in a personnel casualty. One will find the same in the good diaries like those of Strahle, Raesch & Jacobs not to mention other such crash & FTL references in a miriade of other sources. The point being, that forced and crash landings which did not result in a personnel casualty never made it into the weekly Kofl returns, which are the modern enthusiast chief source of data in relation to German losses (and bare in mind too that there are many gaps in this Kofl record). So I ask you, what would we see if we had the original KTB's for the other 80 odd Jagdstafflen????? Indeed it would seem that JWC has become very much a Bible for Jagdstafflen devotees like yourself, but in truth I could add literally scores & scores of documented, but curiously overlooked, crash & forced Jasta landings. Yet another pointer that one cannot rely on these offerings as if they were the final word. Similarly in my time I have obtained combat data for FAA 211 & 235, which has clearly been drawn from early German histories, based on original KTB's, and like the Js 24 & Js 35 example, there are a plethora of combat induced forced and crash landings which one will not see in the likes of COTGAS. Again what if we had the original KTB's for all the 2-seater units??????? So I would strongly suggest to you, that the present German loss wisdom as seen in the Grub St corpus is at least 50-60% shy of the real mark in regards German combat downings. And in my view those who constantly hide behind the present wisdom as if it were somehow sacred scripture are in a state of collective denial.

So again, I ask how can you confidently consign the 87 Sqn claims as merely 'moral victories'? I'll grant no was was killed, and maybe no one was wounded, but one cannot rule out forced and crash landings.

Russ

[Joe M]

Hi Russ, re below

So again, I ask how can you confidently consign the 87 Sqn claims as merely 'moral victories’. I'll grant no was killed, and maybe no one was wounded, but one cannot rule out forced and crash landings.

We can postulate as much as we like but as you say ‘? I'll grant no was killed, and maybe no one was wounded, but one cannot rule out forced and crash landings’.
Until otherwise proven one way or the other I sick by what I said!

I have no reason to believe that Biziou’s claims were anything but moral victories.

Happy Hunting
Joe M

[digit]

Joe&Russ,
have a break and read this. The British Overclaiming was, is and will be a problem.

Captain Albert Ball (1933) by Mr. R.H. Kiernan, a Birmingham history master:

From April 22nd to noon May 7th, 1917, he had engaged 35 German aeroplanes, forced one to land and destroyed 11. These, added to those forced down, sent down out of control and destroyed in 1916, give the V.C. citation of 43. Forty-three victories, but not 43 German aeroplanes destroyed.

it seems to have been a careless error in expression that made Headquarters appear to grant him in death more material success than had been officially allowed him in life; more than Ball claimed for himself.