Jasta 1

[R Gannon]

Frederic

Just keep your eyes peeled. Also check the credits of some already published books. But also understand I have amassed 17 bulging folders of combat data, which would not easily condense into a single book. Happy for the time being to offer what I know in debates like these.

Cheers Russ

[dglewwe]

<i>Cheers Russ</i>


Thanks, Russ

[Frederic Mason]

Thanks Russ; Looking forward to more and new information on all aspects of WWI aero. Best of success with the upcomings.

[R Gannon]

Joe

Whilst your having fun in the UK I'll push on.

1 Oct 18 -

Uffz Schnieder Camel Pronville 1300 #1
(Pronville was just inside German lines on this date)
Simply cannot be 80 Sqn - left 1400 (times matched this date) and fell 21 km to the south. I would suggest this was nothing more than a 'moral victory' in a scrap with 3 Sqn - Capt Smuts of the latter claimed a Fokker as OOC at 1310 - can't give exact loc, as 3 Sqn (and 17 Aero) had the habit of reporting grid references in relation to combats, which is fine if you have the map, but problematic without. None the less they were operating on same sector.

Uffz Schneider RE8 Haynecourt 1730 #2
(must be a jenseits claim as Hayencourt was captured on 28 Sep 18)
Must be 5 Sqn's F6046 which came down west of line.

2 Oct 18

Js 1's three claims over Cambrai 1125-1130
(Cambrai was just inside German lines - Canadian troops were in western suberbs)
This was against a squadron patrol of 54 Sqn which reported being attacked by 9 EA to NE of Cambrai. Certain Borm's 'SE5' is nothing more than a mis-identification of a 54 Sqn Camel. One claim clearly refects 2Lt HJ Densham (mia/kia) who was seen driven down by TWO Fokkers SW of Trun. Another the Camel (F2131) of Capt VP Bennett who was FTL in Brit (Can) lines. But one would have to say it was some oversight on the part of your mentor to omit from your list that Vfw Belz was forced down POW in Canadian lines at Tilloy (just north of Cambrai and captured that day by troops of 2 CDN Div) flying Fok DVII 5301/18 (described as 'dark green' and given capture serial of G/1 Bde/17) and awarded as a shared victory for the patrol. Also that Ltn von Barnekow was lightly wounded and was probably the object of a claim by Lt JC Green for a Fokker crashed just E of Eswars at 1130 (Eswars & Trun are 4-5km NE of Cambrai). Suspect v Barnekow & Borm credited with same aircraft (Denisham?).

More next visit

Russ

[digit]

Just found…

Cigogne
6 January 2009 03:12 PM
MT's posts are not incoherent, English is not his native tongue. It seems that many on the Forum get worked up into a lather and become combative and stir things up into a "schoolyard brawl." This is unfortunate. I've always been interested in what Thiemeyer has to say when he is sharing information.
Peter Grosz had this to say about Manfred Thiemeyer, "He is THE aviation archeologist for German WWI aviation." That from Grosz, who was a giant in the field of German aviation research himself, speaks volumes for Thiemeyer. Peter said that to me when I was working with him on a project that went unpublished due to his untimely death…Just as people know that Alan Toelle is an acknowledged expert due to his meticulous nature of researching, I know that the same is true for Manfred Thiemeyer. They are in the same top category. His methods are meticulous and he understands the intricate details of film, photography, print, and the end result, etc. being a professional from that world. So, his word has much weight with me…

[R Gannon]

Manfred

Self praise, is no praise - how about demonstrating your prowess with more of your Js 1 diarist? Or was he Herr Kister and you have nothing to offer beyond the secretive events of 22 Aug 18?

PS Who is Cigogne?

[R Gannon]

Joe

3 Oct 18

Ltn v Barnekow's 'Bristol' over Cambrai at 1430
(Troops of 3 CDN Div had reached the western suberbs)

The only possibility is a 'N' Flight Bristol which returned with a wounded crew. In addition one has to consider a second claim for a Bristol by Js B's Baumer at exactly the same time but given as just south of Cambrai over Rumilly (captured by Brit 3 Div on 2 Oct 18).

4 Oct 18

The three Camel claims at 1130 over Cambrai by von B, von D (Anvillers?) & Borm.

Don't go at all for 80 Sqn - claims too late (they would have been out of fuel) and a little too far north.

Again it looks like 54 Sqn - a 12 strong patrol was attacked by 7 EA (note two less than on 2 Oct) to NE of Ramilles 1115-1120. In resulting scrap, 2Lt Fuller ftl ok just east of Tilloy, whilst Capt Bennett & Lt Green each claimed to have crashed a Fokker. Tilloy & Ramillies are just north and NE of Cambrai.

No idea as to Liebig claim - again almost certainly nothing more than a moral victory.

7 Oct 17

Lucky last - von B's 'Bristol' Avnes le Sec (still well in German lines) at 1210.

This has to be 11 Sqn's E2591 - but no indication of any fight, so must have been a straggler or one returning with engine trouble.

A little more later.

Russ

PS Manfred - only constructive input please.

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,

I thought you might be interested in the following blurb on ‘Camel Drivers’ The 17th Aero Sqn in World War One’ by Otis Lowell Reed & George Roland is as follows;

Thirty years in the writing, this definitive work on The 17th Aero Sqn in World War One is drawn from a wide range of official and personal sources. These sources include original squadron records (found in an attic), numerous interviews, letters written home, and half a dozen dairies including one kept by a German pilot flying in opposition.

I will post more tomorrow.

PS Hopefully tomorrow I will get the all clear from my recent scare.

Happy Hunting
Joe M

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,
Some more info on the claims on Sunday the 22nd of September 1918.

B & C flights of the 17th Aero Sqn took off at 8 a.m. and crossed the lines at 12,000 feet with the Dolphins of 87 Squadron another 1,000 feet higher. Almost immediately they encountered 15 Fokker’s flying above all. B flights Vaughn and Dixon drew Wicks, Tillinghast and Thomas’s attention to the threat above. At this time the Dolphins turned to engage the Fokker’s.

Meanwhile C flight, Clements, Campbell, Knotts, Schneider and Giesecke, flying below B flight continued seeming not aware of the danger above.
Clements leading C flight over Rumilly where they say two Fokker’s from Jasta 26 (black and white checked tails) attacking a Bristol Fighter. Clements and Knotts attacked the two Fokker’s, driving them westwards for nearly a mile. Knotts managed to get a good burst from twenty yards into one of the German aircraft. The pilot immediately threw up his hands and his aircraft fell out of control eventually crashing upside down in a wood just across the lines.

At this stage the high flying Fokker’s disregarded B flight and the 87 Sqn Dolphins and dropped down on C flight. Vaughn of B flight saw the developing situation and also another 15 Fokker’s joining the fight with the 87 Sqn Dolphins. To try and distract the diving Fokker’s he led B flight into them and ‘an awesome dogfight erupted’. The unfortunate Gerald ‘Kewpie’ Thomas was KiA almost immediately. Theose Tillinghast attacked one Fokker but as he was unable to get a shot at him he wisely decide to dive from 10,000 feet to 25 feet and head for home. He was over the trenches with three Fokker’s on his tail when his engine cut out, he suspected a bullet from the ground but with three Fokker’s on his tail blasting away at him whenever they had a chance who’s to say. Stopping his zigzagging for a moment to crash land, his wings were peppered and he ended upside down in a shell hole surrounded by German soldiers. It was at this stage that Vaughn claimed his victory with the German pilot pitched upwards and then went spinning down through the dogfight. Dixon saw it burst into flames and fall southwest of Cambrai. Vaughn fought another Fokker and hit him from above and behind Dixon also saw this aircraft spin into the ground.

This is where Ltn. Fredrich Noltenius of Jasta 27 enters the fray. His diary reads, ‘When we arrived in the battle zone, the Sopwith (Vaughn) attacked another Fokker even though I sat immediately behind. I too fired at once. Then another Fokker wedged itself between the Sopwith and me and the dog fight continued. Alternately Mesch, Neuenhofen and I were behind him. Finally Neuenhofen got close enough, kept behind him and forced him down for good.

This mistaken claim resulted from the fact that although Vaughn was driven down almost to the ground by three Fokker’s, when he tried to level off and pull away Neuenhofen got in a good burst at him. At this stage he found out that his main petrol tank had been shot through and had to hurriedly switch to his reserve tank. As the Fokker’s had pulled away thinking him finished he managed to limp back to his airfield, his plane a wreck. The damage to Vaughn’s aircraft consisted of; Spar in the right upper plane shot through’, three struts on the right hand side of the fuselage forward of the cockpit were splintered, and the lower left main plane and aileron were shot through. Vaughn himself was drenched in petrol from his damaged main fuel tank when he nursed his damaged plane down at his airfield.

Meanwhile Wicks was chased down, escaped his pursuers, found an enemy aircraft west of Rumilly and sent it crashing down.

I think that I will stick with Vaughn as the victor over Ltn. Karl Bauernfeind, Jasta 34b, was KiA, shot down in flames southwest of Cambrai, as per Vaughn’s claim.

Happy Hunting

Joe M

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Nice, but I would suggest somewhat embroided account, of which with the exception of the Tillinghast account, there is nothing in it that cannot be found in C&C US Vol 19 #2 pages 174 to 178. And neither Vaughn's CR or latter account makes any mention of the 87 Sqn involvement! Likewsise the fuller Noltenius account (not a little emroided itself) reads: '...Finally six machines (two-seaters) made an appearance over there. Staffel 26 went after them. It did not take long and soon enemy single seaters appeared, coming from towards Albert. We flew over enemy territory. From our side, a squadron of Sopwiths approached. We dived on them at once, but I remained higher above up becaus I saw another Sopwith formation approaching. I flew in front of the leader in order to make him attack me He promptly dived vertically for me. I turned towards him, immediately sat behind him and then we went down circling. When we arrived in the battle zone...' I would suggest the Sopwith leader engaged by Noltenius was Vaughn and that Vaughn claimed Noltenius! Js 34 no where in sight!

Similary I think it presumptous to claim that the black & white chequed tail Fokkers attacked by Knott & Clements were from Js 26 - Knotts CR makes no such description. Whilst this is Gregvan's domain - the well known Js 26 livery was black & white stripped fuselages!

Overall I think my post #330 is a more faithful version of events.

And still don't think Vaugn downed Baurenfiend! Why not claim of Knotts & Clements? And of course what about claim of Capt Barton of 24 Sqn (I have copy of his CR). Similarly I would like to see the 87 Sqn CR's (though I suspect they were the six 2-seaters (sic) engaged by Js 26). As always of course we are hamstrung by the incomplete German record - a time would be nice for Baurenfiends loss. Also data pertaining to Jasta forced & crash landings. As I point out tirelessly - these cannot be ruled out.

Cheers Russ