Jasta 1

[R Gannon]

Joe

Were getting a little off topic Js 1, but the time re Boelcke claim is interesting. As you would know ATL gives Morval PM, JWC to NE Pozieres, no time & the old Js 2 history in C&C US gives Le Sars but again no time.

His own account simply states a seven strong Js 2 attacked a similar number of 'Vickers' to west of Bapaume and that he got on tail of one over Pys (German side) and drove down to 400m when attacked by two more & broke off, stating this a/c landed near artillery position near Pozieres. He went on to say this was photographed by section 32 - presumably FA32. Then adds 'If this is credited..' The plot thickens when you read a little earlier when Werner quotes from Js 2 KTB saying on this date 18 flights & 5 victories but then only lists the three by Bohme, Ostv Muller & Imelmann. One must assume the other two must be Boelcke's and the other MvR's contested claim.

If time of PM is correct the Cockerell would seem most likely, though Morval is quite some distance from locations given by Boelcke himself. If time of PM wrong them 32 Sqn's Mare-Montembault looks the goods. Certainly line W Bapaume - Pys - Mouquet Farm fits Boelcke scenerio.

Thing is all the Js 2 claims except Imelmann's are problematic on one score or another - not in least MvR's disallowed claim which is well outside Js 2's area of opperations.

Time running out.

Cheers Russ.

[Joe M]

Hi Russ and Graeme,
Sorry for not continuing the discussions re Jasta 1 sooner but I do want to continue the thread and do not want to see it falling off the pages! After spending a good few hours going thro’ my library I do believe that I will have enough information to change your minds on the victory claims for the 17th of October 1916. This I hope to post over the next few days.
Please excuse me if I ramble a bit. On the 13th of Nov when in France my doctor rang me to inform me that a small (6mm) sore that he removed from my tongue was actually cancerous. Not bad for someone who never smoked (sorry l lied, I did smoke when going to disco’s when I was about 17/18 for a few months). The ‘Marlborough Man’ has a lot to answer for, but like Bill Clinton I DID NOT INHALE!
This did put a bit of a damper on the holidays but never the less we went to the U- boat pens in St Nazaire and also the where HMS Campbeltown rammed the lock gate in March 1942 before blowing up the following day. We also brought back about 40 bottles of good French wine in the back of the car. Arrived back in Ireland on the 17th of Nov!
Since then, on the 19th of Nov I met the Professor who will be dealing with me, he shocked both my wife and I with his reading of the situation but did emphasis the positives. It was found very early, was very small and does not seem to have spread beyond my tongue. The operation which will follow will see me in hospital for 7/10 days with a few months at home for recovery. He told me that after the op there is an 80% complete cure rate, so let’s look upon the bright side, but it has taken a while to get my head around this, so hence the delay in replying to the thread on the Aerodrome.
The 21st saw me giving bloods, having a chest and a mouth X-ray. On the 26th I had a PET scan and was told to stay away from pregnant women and young children as I was radio-active (no I did not glow in the dark). Tomorrow, the 29th I have an MRI scan. The team who will be looking after me get together either on Friday this week or Monday next week, then my wife and I are called in and told what the results are and how they are going to proceed.
So Guys if you believe in someone ‘up there’ have some words with him cause I could do with a good slice of luck at the moment!
Will hopefully post what I think are the correct results for the 17th of October over the next day or two.
Happy Hunting
Joe

[jsontag]

My thoughts and prayers are with you Joe. Also wishing you a speedy recovery.

James

[Graeme]

Joe

Hope all goes well. Looks like I'll be having my polypectomy some time next week, so hopefully the anaemia will be sorted out - with any luck, there'll be no more cameras going where I'd rather cameras didn't go

Graeme

[Joe M]

Hi Graeme,
The paparazzi are a complete pain in the ......
Good Luck to you as well, don't know how old you are Graeme, I'm 58, this growing old sucks big time.
Am working on the 17th of Oct as I write. Who says that only women can do two things at the same time.

Hi James,
Many thanks for the kind thoughts, they are appreciated.

Happy Hunting Guys
Joe

[Graeme]

Joe

Made 58 earlier this year myself and plan on growing old as disgracefully as possible

On top of the ongoing heart problem, this year I've had (and still got) frozen shoulders, a bleeding gastric ulcer and now this! Still, the initial endoscpoy confirmed there was nothing else to worry about, so my wife's mind has been put at ease.

Oh well, better get ready to get to work.

Look forward to seeing your information on the events of 17 October.

Cheers

Graeme

[Alien]

Best wishees, Graeme & Joe. Hang in there, We 58 year olds have to stick together.

I've been lurking on this informative thread since it started and I've got to say keep up the good work!

[Joe M]

Hi Guys,
Re the 17th of October 1916 there were 4 British aircraft lost, one Nieuport 20 A259 from 1 Sqn RFC with 2.Lt C.C. Godwin and Lt. P.C. Ellis both of whom were KiA. This was reputedly hit by AA fire. Photo of 2.Lt C.C. Godwin on page 37 in C&C UK’s excellent book Nieuports in RNAS, RFC and RAF Service, published in 2007. As far as I know 1 Sqn was operating further north (I am not sure if this is correct) and was not involved near the area of Albert and Bapaume that the FE2’s came down in. So where does that leave us?
Four German claims for FE2s and three FE2s lost.
Oswald Boelcke Ja2 claimed a FE2 and that his victim fell in flames and burnt out on the ground 500 meters West of Bullecourt inside German lines.
Gustav Leffers Ja1 claimed an FE2 South West of Bapaume inside German lines. Oswald Boelcke saw Leffers force his victim down prior to his own victory.
Both of the above were claims were made after patrols from Ja1 and Ja2 attacked the FE2’s of 11 Sqn. Boelcke described the time prior to the engagement as ‘After a long and useless flight over the lines’.
Stephan Kirmaier claimed another FE2b at a different time as Boelcke make no mention of Kirmaier being involved in the fight with 11 Sqn. and Kirmaier himself says that he took off at approx 10.30 GT after 17 English aircraft appeared over their airfield at Lagnicourt on the way to bomb the railway station at Cambrai.
Renatus Theiller also claimed a ‘Vickers’ FE2 North of Maurepas, Maurepas itself is about 12k directly South of Bapaume
My contention is as follows:
As Boelckes FE2B went down in flames after his second attack it had to be 7670 as both Lt. W.P. Bowman and 2Lt. G. Clayton were KiA. It was last seen in combat in the Mory / Queant area. Queant is almost directly West of Bullecourt. I know that aircrew have survived being shot down in flames but it would be most unusual for the pilot not to have been injured at all.
Gustav Leffers claim I am pretty sure is 6965 with 2Lt. C.L.Robers PoW and 2Lt. J.L.Pulleyn KiA. After the war 2Lt. C.L.Robers reported that he had come down close to Le Sars which is South West of Bapaume and is basically on the Bapaume / Albert Rd.
From Jasta Boelcke by Norman Franks he reported that ‘Attacked by seven EA whilst flying outside right of formation. Observer killed, self wounded and engine hit. Attempted to regain lines, landed in no-mans-land. Obtained shelter until midnight. Walked into German lines by mistake owing to thick fog’.
Stephan Kirmaier’s claim I suspect is the FE2 from 23 Sqn. 2Lt. J.K.Parker WiA PoW and 2Lt. J.C. Wilson KiA. They were last seen in the Velu area which is less than 10k east of Bapaume. While the 11 Sqn Fe2’s has left at approx 10.00 the 23 Sqn FE had left earlier at approx 09.00. The aircraft was returning having already dropped its bombs when Stephan Kirmaier attacked. Again from Jasta Boelcke ‘After a perfectly aimed burst from both machine guns, he rolled over on his left wing and rushed downwards. In the dive the observer fell out. The machine itself dashed into a bit of ploughed land near our airfield’.
Renatus Theiller’s confirmed claim remains a bit of a mystery! He claimed ‘Vickers’ FE2 North of Maurepas. Maurepas is about 12 k South of Bapaume. Perhaps this one made it back over the Allied lines. I don’t know what time he claimed this victory. I have seen in some publications that 18 Sqn is mentioned but they did not have any loss on this day. Maybe someone else out there can give us more details on Renatus Theiller’s action?
Hi Graeme, this growing old lark really sucks! Hope to be in your general direction the weekend of the 7th of Oct. Wife and I are baby sitting in Twickenham.
Happy Hunting
Joe

[R Gannon]

Hi Joe

Working from top to bottom - 1 Sqn were based up north at Bailluel thru 1916, 1917 and into 1918 only leaving this loc during the Battle of Lys in Apr 18. I think we can safely say their loss was due to Flak.

As to the FE / Vickers claims. I must admit that I do not own NF's Jasta Boelcke (broused thru it once) so the 2Lt Roberts post capture report and indeed the first hand words of Kirmaier are new to me. And on the basis of those, your argument that Leffers downed 6965 would seem sound.

HOWEVER - there is a time frame problem. As we know from the Werner book Boelcke claims that in company with Ltn Bohme he attacked a formation of 6 'Vickers' and that he was joined by three of Jasta 1 and that he observed '...Leffers, of Jagdstaffel 1, tackled one first and forced him down..' drive down one of the Vickers. And indeed the Leffers claim time is 1200GT. Where as the Boelcke claim is at 1210GT. Now I find it interesting that Boelcke's own account has many points of contact with the Roberts EOW account in that he says 'I picked out the lowest of them, attacked him and forced him away from the others, so I had him to myself..' going on to relate a second attack and sent him down to crash burning 500m west of Bullecourt.

Now I always feel it is important to have visibility of the story from the other side, and not as has been the predelection of so many pro-German enthusiasts; to dwell overly on the much sparser German visibilty in conjunction with the British loss data only, as this approach often only provides half the story.

What I do know is that the 5 strong 11 Sqn photo mission was engaged over Queant (16km German side) by as many as 20 EA! And that 6965 was seen chased down (but not crashed) over Queant. The fighting then continued back to at least Mory (10km German side) where crew of Capt Price & Lt Libby sent one of the attackers down apparently OOC at 1115BT (1215GT). And of course the Roberts account says hit in the motor he made it back to no-mans-land at Le Sars (this had been captured by Brit 23 Div on 7 Oct 16 - incidently the very fighting in which Adolf Hitler was wounded). Now I get the feeling Boelcke did in fact drive down and chased 6965 back to Le Sars, but somehow he was credited with the FE which crashed crashed 500m west of Bullecourt - Queant being just east of Bullecourt. And that this FE was in fact 7670 and moreover very likely the one downed by Leffers at the beginning of the fighting.

How can this be? You likely ask. We'll I for one do not believe the German claiming system was as squeaky clean as many have been want to claim. It may well be that on return, Js 2 rang around for word of a downed Vickers - but only recieved word of one down near Bullecout - and that was 7670! News of of the other downed Vickers (6965) may not have been so forth coming, being as it came down right on the front line and in an ongoing battle! I'm sure the German front line commanders had more to worry about than pesky phone calls from the pampered flyboys. And as an OPleM holder and Germany's leading ace, I suspect that Boelcke may have got preference over Leffers in relation to credit for the FE down at Bullecourt. And that his CR was written up to reflect this (location wise) Ultimately I would suspect that news of a second downed Vickers(6956) to SW of Bapaume filtered through and Leffers duly got the credit for that one as his victory #8.

As to the Kirmaier claim and the 23 Sqn loss, this would seem to be the case, but one has to suspect Kirmaier was refering to a crash near his old aerodrome Bertincourt and not Lagnicourt. Similarly British 'visibility' will show 23 Sqn were on a recon and not a bombing mission as the German visibility implies.

As to the Js 5 Theiller claim - If one looks at relevant battle maps then one will see N of Maurepas would be well inside Allied lines (French Sixth Army sector of Somme) and as you will find as we proceed, these jenseits claims can be every bit as falible as the many British claims over German lines, when it comes to finding the so called 'hard kill'. JWC does give 18 Sqn, but I do not know on what grounds. Maybe Graeme can shed some light. Again I would strongly suggest there are no hidden British losses. Maybe a French aircraft? But I think the bottom line is that the German claiming system was no where near as accurate as the conviction long held by so many.

Cheers Russ

St Nazaire Raid - one of the most gallant raids of all time.

[Joe M]

Hi Russ,
I have to disagree with you on the Boelcke claim and by default with your reading of Gustav Leffers claim. Oswald Boelcke specifically says that his victim went down in flames from 500 mt and crashed West of Bullecourt.
Nowhere in 2Lt. C.L Roberts (6965) post war debriefing does he say that his aircraft caught fire and crashed in flames. 'Attacked by seven EA whilst flying outside right of formation. Observer killed, self wounded and engine hit. Attempted to regain lines, landed in no-mans-land'. This is not an aircraft that crashed in flames as Oswald Boelcke claimed.
I don't think that an OPleM winner and very experienced pilot is going to mistake West of Bullecourt for South West of Bapaume (on Bapaume -Albert Rd), there is approx 17-20k of a difference between the two sites. Also Leffers Claim is for this exact area as Le Sars where Roberts and Pulleyn came down is on the Bapaume -Albert Rd.
While I agree with you that the German claiming system was not as squeaky clean as soon people claim, especially in the closing months of the war but it was a lot better that the Allied system. Granted there are claims by some of the top German Aces and other pilots that cannot be matched up but normally only one victory was awarded for one allied aircraft shot down. The multiple awarding of victories on the Allied side in some cases is unbelievable with over five pilots being awarded a victory for one German aircraft shot down. How many times do you read reports of 'Albatros crashed beside the A to B road and smashed into pieces' and there are no corresponding German losses or even woundings that you would expect from such a major impact.
I don’t want to start a major debate on the + and - of the Allied and German victory claims and the merits of either one because that is not relevant to the topic of Jasta 1 but if you wish to open a different thread on this I would be happy to discuss the pros and cons of same but I expect that this has previously be done in great detail?
Anyway Guys have to sign off and get my beauty sleep (and boy to I need it).
Happy Hunting
Joe