Meeting the same ace twice

cspellman · 13 January 2003, 02:51 PM

Since it seems evident that both sides were somewhat familiar with their opponents most skilled fliers, is it at all recorded that two particular aces (or non-aces) met in the sky more than once in combat? *Since I understand that opposing units often dueled with one another on more than one occassion it seems likely that multiple encounters pitting two warring fliers could have occurred, yet I don't think I have ever read of this happening.

wulffo · 13 January 2003, 09:10 PM

Udet claims to have met Guynemer twice. One time Guynemer supposedly came from nowhere took out one of Udets flight and escaped by simply diving away (this event is I believe doubted as it does not coincide with a Guynemer claim).
The second time they were in a tight turning dogfight where to use Udets words he was fighting for his life against a better opponent. This encounter supposedly ended in a draw when Udets gun jammed, Guynemer saluted and turned away. Udet claims to have been close enough to be able to read the Vieux Charles on Guynemers plane.
*** hope my memory serves me well on the above any corrections are more than welcome.....

cspellman · 13 January 2003, 09:57 PM

Extraordinary! *I have to think that since opposing units often faced one another in the same sectors that this sort of thing must have occurred at times, perhaps unbeknownst to the fliers themselves.

Regulus · 13 January 2003, 10:08 PM

Quite right !

The German naval air service in Flanders and their British counterparts had numerous 'meetings' in the sky of Flanders. Most certainly a number of their aces must have met a few times, without knowing it in fact.

Big chance that the British did know more about this then the Germans, as the German naval planes had most of the time very specific personal markings, which was not really the case with the machines of the RNAS/RAF.

Best from Regulus

Alan · 13 January 2003, 11:58 PM

Well, as rare as two great flyers meeting was, consider what the outcome of two such meetings were: *MvR vs.

Lanoe Hawker and

LvR vs.

Albert Ball. *

At the time, Hawker was one of the leading RFC aces with nine victories and a Victorian Cross recipient. *While Richthofen did prevail, it was with great difficulty. *It was MvR's 11th victory.

When Lothar fought Ball-- the net result? *Ball was killed and Lothar was forced to land, giving Ball his 45th but uncredited kill.

So in the end, perhaps it was a good thing the great pilots didn't encounter each other too often, else they might end up dead.

MikeW · 14 January 2003, 09:16 AM

Mel Alexander of Naval 10 said in an interview in the 70s when asked if he'd ever met MvR in combat, that when you were in the thick of an engagement you were fighting for your life - you hadn't got a clue who your opponent was.

Mike

MikeW · 14 January 2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

When Lothar fought Ball-- the net result? Ball was killed and Lothar was forced to land, giving Ball his 45th but uncredited kill.

Oh boy, here we go again!

ONEALM · 14 January 2003, 09:33 AM

At least two instances come to mind immediately - the aces of Jasta 7 and Naval 10 were in constant contact through the summer of 1918 into the late fall.

Josef Jacobs and Ken Unger (14 victories) tangled at least twice, once in late July and again on 14 October 1918. Unger was credited with an OOC as his 11th on 14 October mentioning the "all black triplane" specifically in both his combat report and log book.

As for knowing who was whom - not a chance. It was enough to know when you had your hands full with a skilled opponent. No one was exchanging business cards !

14 January 2003, 11:37 AM

>met in the sky more than once in combat?

Alan Murray-Jones was shot down by Gerhardt Felmy twice in 40 days on the Palestinian Front.

When Vautin was shot down and Felmy flew over 1 Sqn AFC's aerodrome he dropped a note asking for Vautins kit to be dropped off over FA300's aerodrome and Murray Jones returned the notes with the kit. FA300 and 1 Sqn exchanged some notes and pleasantries through Felmy and Murray-Jones's note droppings.

Felmy was I believe the only German ace on the Palestinian Front who scored five victories on the Palestinian Front, Walz who came later became on ace on the Western Front. Murray Jones later commanded 2 Sqn AFC in France but never achieved ace status.

cam

Alan · 15 January 2003, 12:26 AM

MikeW, you'll have to forgive me if this was obviously something debated ad nauseum in the past. *Although I am new to these forums I am not new to them in general. *So, again, sorry.

I have a bud at work who has the journals from his grandfather, who flew in WWI and claimed to have been shot down by MvR. *Well, I haven't seen the journals yet but I know they are a rare find, however, the "fog of war" has prevailed here. *We couldn't find his grandfather's name in the official victory list but heck, when facing the "flying circus" when most of the aeroplanes were painted red with slight variations, it would be incredibly hard to know just who pulled the trigger as you are being shot down. *It could have been Lothar, it could have been Wolff, heck, anyone or a combination thereof.

I imagine if being jumped by

Werner Voss one might have a chance of knowing who it was, or early in the war when MvR was the only one with a red bird. *2/Lt Wilfred May, in Kilduff's Richthofen: Beyond the Legend of the Red Baron said:

Quote:

"I knew I was being fired on from the rear ...[and] all I could do was try and dodge my attacker. *I noticed it was a red tri-plane, but if I realized it was Richthofen, I would have probably passed out on the spot *... *I had to restrain myself from pushing my stick forward [and nosing over] into the river, as I knew I had had it."