Favourite manoeuvres.

[CharlesNungesser]

Do you gentlemen know if Charles Nungesser had any kind of favourite manoeuvre to escape an attacker and to attack? What about the other aces? I guess that immelmann is well known one, eh?

[Barker]

This is from foggy memory and heresay at that but I remember someone quoting Nungesser as being a big fan of the head-on attack. Chicken, at 100+ mph, 200+ in closing speed. Wouldn't think that the sort of thing that would guarentee longevity but that's what I remember. Still, the man seemed to prefer Nieuports and that aircraft is not a blunt object.
I am a big fan of Charles Nungesser.

anybody?

-Barker

Ya Immelmann was fond of the "original" Immelmann (here we go again?) whereby he could reverse his direction quickly without having to roll his troublesome wing warping a/c. It involved nearly a hammerhead stall but instead rolled over to nose down by applying heavy rudder at the apex of the climb.

Most of the high scorers weren't too fancy, just bagging anyone not paying attention. MvR was this type, even in a DR1. Guys like Voss and Jacobs used the DR1's amazing flat turning (using only rudder) to great effect.

William Barker and other Camel experts were able to snap turn a camel to the right so fast it was "instantaneous". Keeping in a mind that turn fights in these days resembled "Ballet" somewhat, i'm not sure how fast "instantaneous" was. I have pictured in my head a very quick wing-over. The tricky part was probably controlling the skidding after/during the turn.

Nungesser/Ball loved to crash a formation(head on) and send it scattering, then picking off whomever seemed the most shaken up by the apparent suicide attack.

Guys like Guynemer and later Udet and Rickenbacker, would dance over the enemies head, using energy conserving manuvers(modern immelmann, retournement, whatever suited the situation) so that their enemies could not attack back...usually.

[Richard_Schrader]

The best tactic was and is to sneak up on a foe, close until you almost hit him, and blow his ass off.

Richard

[Shooter]

Kory, when you say "modern Immelmann" this differs from the original how?

I executed what I thought was an Immelmann turn or Immelmann roll, as it was taught to me, in a SuperCub by pulling the a/c up into a near stall, rolling over to the left and reversing course on the way back down. It was at the top of the maneuver, while I was suspended almost motionless that I felt an emotion which could only be described as vulnerability. Hanging there like a target, I cannot for the life of me understand how this could be considered an air combat maneuver. The maneuver does not seem to be all that stressful as ACM's go, but just hanging there, waiting for someone to light me up....there's gotta be a better way.


Shooter sends

[drIace]

*The best tactic was and is to sneak up on a foe, close until you almost hit him, and blow his ass off.

* * * * * * * * * * *Richard

..."Find the enemy and shoot him down, all else is nonsense"... MvR---- Same thing from Adolf Galland, Eric Hartmann in WWII. I have also talked with many many many US WWII , Korean War and Vietnam Aces and all attest to the same thing that Richard has so concisely said

Kory, when you say "modern Immelmann" this differs from the original how?

I executed what I thought was an Immelmann turn or Immelmann roll, as it was taught to me, in a SuperCub by pulling the a/c up into a near stall, rolling over to the left and reversing course on the way back down. *It was at the top of the maneuver, while I was suspended almost motionless that I felt an emotion which could only be described as vulnerability. *Hanging there like a target, I cannot for the life of me understand how this could be considered an air combat maneuver. *The maneuver does not seem to be all that stressful as ACM's go, but just hanging there, waiting for someone to light me up....there's gotta be a better way.


Shooter sends

Wow you just described a old Immelmann(you rolled, Immelmann, yawed like hell). The modern Immelmann(I thought anyway perhaps i'm wrong here) is described as a half loop followed by a half roll:
|1/2Roll-----------> *End
|
|
<----------Start

Old Style:
|> * *(Immelmann used mostly rudder at top)
| *
* *
* * *
* * * * --------->End
* * *<--------------Start


You are not in danger at the loop/roll part(vulnerable) because, unless your opponent has an f-15 and can go straight up, he can't bear guns on you.

Obveously you do not pull this off with a "bogey" on your tail, but after making a diving, firing pass at him. *Usually said opponent with make a hard turn to screw up your shot(or because he shit himself and just wants to move ...somewhere). *So you pull up(because you want to save your energy rather than piss it away in a high g turn) and are now headed to opposite way he is heading, you use a "Immelmann" to reverse direction without losing altitude or energy.

I guess really the difference is minor, *Immelmann used his fully moveable Fokker rudder to make his turn at the top and was never upside down. *If he did any "rolling" it was just to help the stability of the turn.

[Shooter]

Actually Kory, it makes a lot of sense if one is attacking a two-seater, as Immelmann would have victimized most of the time.

Having made a gunnery pass at high speed, Max (and any other driver) would have wanted to deaden his forward motion while converting his velocity into altitude to line up a second shot before the victim could get very far away. The ability to reverse course while not losing sight of one's target, in the process of conserving the energy of the attack for subsequent attempts would make either form of Immelmann a useful tool.

The maneuver would not be of much value as an escape maneuver, and it was for this purpose that I had thought it was proposed.

Thanks for the clarification.


Shooter sends