Arch Whitehouse

19 October 2002, 12:10 AM

About the 30 - 40 aircraft for a DOGFIGHT, I am no WWI historian but I have to beleive planes went up in squds of no less than 4 but probably a lot more.

So, 15 on each side does not seem unreal. TOT 30 arcft.

That doesn't mean each/every arcft was in the fight.

EdStevens · 20 October 2002, 02:26 AM

I have no problem accepting 30 or 50 aircraft in a fight as having occurred on a good number of occasions; mostly in 1917 and 1918. My problem is Whitehouse arbitrarily deciding that the word "dogfight" should only be used to describe those specific fights. This despite the fact that his contemporary pilots used the word to describe an intense fight of only a few aircraft (the word "scrap" was used much more often, but you don't have to look too hard to find examples of "dogfight" used at the time).

What gives Whitehouse the right to change the definition? Because when real dogs fight, they only do so in packs of 30 or more? No, I believe it was because he was involved in just such a large-scale fight and decided to increase its/his importance by making it one of the only "true" dogfights. I think that's silly.

Billy_Bishop · 21 October 2002, 01:55 PM

Silly? Yes, it also shows his ego. But, while I can fault his ego, I can't totally dismiss him. In my very humble opinion, I think he along with others of his generation brought the story of the WWI airman to our attention.

VBR,

Al Lowe

EdStevens · 21 October 2002, 05:24 PM

I agree completely, Al. I've enjoyed Whitehouse's writings since the '60's, and have respect for him as one who was there and knew from first-hand experience what the war was like. In fact, "The Fledgling" is a favourite book of mine. It's precisely because I like him that I find the dogfight definition thing irksome. It's Whitehouse at his most self-indulgent and self-important. Pity.

Billy_Bishop · 21 October 2002, 05:29 PM

I can agree with that. I guess I just tend to overlook that comment, and just chalk it up to his ego bursting through.

VBR,

Al

21 October 2002, 11:30 PM

I too grew up in the 60's and remember the word scrape. And I have heard it since to describe plane in WWI in a fight.

The thing I find interesting is that I greqw up loving planes (all planes) and I had no interest in Arch.

I have a lot of books from the 60's ( many from before...ads I went to used book stores ).

My idol was Rob. L. Scott (God is my CoPilot) and Ernest K Gann, And Martin Caidin (the late).

BobE · 22 October 2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

What gives Whitehouse the right to change the definition?

Is it not just possible, language being the ever changing thing that it is, that at the moment in time that the term was coined and when Art first heard it, that his was the definition and it quickly came to be used for any aerial combat?