Who really shot the Red Baron

[NeilE]

Stephen:

{SL} What about the account of Lt. Donald Fraser? *It seems he arrived and stopped the first soldiers who arrived from liberating items. His account says he got there very quickly. *Not later (oh by the way who was an intel officer?)

From my reading, it seems that Lt. Fraser arrived at the scene somewhat after Twycross and the Signals Sgt mentioned earlier. Fraser and two other removed the body from the cockpit and laid it on the ground near the wreck. However, whether this was before or after the arrival of Capt Adams and the (scavenging) sentry party is unclear. However, it seems that scavenging began before MVR was even out of the cockpit.

Yes, Lt Fraser was a Battalion Intelligence Officer. I think you misread what this actually means and seem to want to overstate this role. Every infantry battalion in the British and Imperial Forces had one. It was one of those extra duties assigned to junior Leutenants. The role of the intelligence officer was to interpret recconaisance, search out favourable ground, make sure it was passed on to Battalion HQ, distribute communiques from HQ, occasionally interview prisoners before passing them to the rear, and generally gather information for Battalion HQ. It was a job that required no extra training or skills - that was why junior leutenants generally got it. It was not an 'intelligence officer' in the modern sense at all, and certainly does not have sinister overtones.

{SL} Can we believe that troops at the front would be unarmed?

Signallers were often attached to the artillery, being responsible for maintaining communications between batteries and Brigade HQ. The ones present at the crash site were attached to the 53rd and 55th batteries and were laying telephone wires at the time. Most accounts written by signallers of the time refer to them working unarmed. A bulky Lee-Enfield was a hinderance to working quick and fast, and was usually left in 'digs' when they were out on a job. Check out some accounts of signallers memoirs - I suggest Patsy Adam-Smith's "The ANZACS", which has a particlularly good account of the work and experiences of a signaller in 1917 and 1918.

{SL} Twycross is not recorded as the witness to the crash either. He was ordered to do his job and as a loyal soldier he did it. As all of the other loyal soldiers that were in attendance 'fighting the bloody hun.'

No but he was first on the scene and witness to a dying MVR.

"No Sooner had the triplane stopped than Lt. Turner instructed Twycross to climb out and take the German pilot prisoner before he could set his aeroplane on fire" (Franks & Bennet)

So if this is the time frame, wouldn't he have seen
(a) MVR attempt to get out of the aeroplane;
(B) MVR react to the impact of being shot;
© MVR slump back into the cockpit. (funny also how he was found in a position one would be in if one was flying the aircraft, not one where he had slumped back into the cockpit severly wounded).

However, Twycross does not mention a,b,c at all. But if MVR was shot after landing, he would have I think. (unless Ernie Twycross is your villain)

{SL} Or an aircraft loosing power due to a malfunction or bullet in its mags, fuel ine or oil line.

Once again known evidence does not show this. The accounts refer to the plane being flown erratically as if the pilot could not work the controls in an even fashion. There is a difference between how a severely wounded man flies a plane and a man with all his faculties in a disabled plane flys it.

{SL} Would you happen to have an estimate of how many out of the Brigade of infantry present did not have weapons on them at the front?

Obviously not, but the triplane crash landed in a discrete area of the brigade's front and the numbers of men in the area are somewhat limited. MVR came down more or less in the artillery lines. Most of the infantry were farther in the valley to the south.

In relation to the seat, given that MVR was flying along a steep valley in pursuit of May with infantry positions to either side of him, it is more likely the fatal bullet entered from the side of the fuselage and would not have touched the seat at all. The Australian Machine gunners were almost parallel to MVR when they were shooting at him. Photographs of the actual seat show it to be low at the sides, and thus would not have obstructed the bullet passing through the fuselage. Of course, given that the fabric of the aircraft was mostly taken by souvineer hunters, no-one can know where the bullet passed through in the fuselage.

So what happened to Ltn. Windisch?

What about Lt Windisch?

All the Best

Neil

[NeilE]

Opps... pushed the wrong button on that last post...better get your magnifiers out people!

All the Best

Neil

[NeilE]

Stephen;

So what is Windisch's evidence?

AtB

Neil

[NeilE]

Seems this debate has run out of avgas.....

N.

[StephenLawson]

Greetings all:

Sorry I haven't been available for postings. Although I have a lot more to say, The death of Dr. Parks has me talking care of other business right now.

Neil_E: Windisch was brought down and the information we have is that he was beaten to death in captivity. His captors evidently gave conflicting evidence and statements to the Red Cross .

More later. STL

[NeilE]

Stephen;

The Windisch incident sounds unfortunate and tragic. I think at times falling into (either) enemy hands could be a tricky business. Many of the memoirs of British piliots talk about not wanting to be forced down over German lines as they feared being killed by ground troops, particularly if ground attack had been done in the area lately.

I think all sides did this sort of thing and it was a product of battle stress. i wouldn't be surprised if everyone lied about it too. There is a case mentioned in "No Parachute" of a 46 Sqn pilot being killed after landing by infantry. I wonder how the German records treat that incident, if at all. It would be interesting to see.

Similar to this was the practice of straffing pilots and aeroplanes after they had been forced down. Once again, I think both sides were responsible also.

However, I don't necessarily see that this has anything to do with MVR's demise. Flying fish may fly but trout do not live in trees as the Monty Python Gang once pointed out.

We are talking about separate incidents with different contexts here. As i pointed out previously. If Twycross moved to capture MVR as soon as the Triplane came to rest, then he is likely to have seen MVR be shot as well.

Al the Best

Neil

[NeilE]

PS Stephen;

It was sad to hear of the death of Doctor Parks. My condolences to all that knew him.

All the Best

Neil