Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

Not sure what the "Boy VC" was either (could be one of two 15-year-old recipients, or that awarded to a fellow named "Boyes") but there's an excellent VC site at http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/unusual.asp with a page on Unusual VCs.
Didn't know three fellows got VCs with bars, f'rinstance ...

[Tom_Cervo]

* ** *When I was at the IWM in the early 80s a discussion arose about unusual VCs. *The two I recall being mentioned were The Boy VC (whatever that was) and Bishop. *It was stated that BB remained the only recipient based on his own testimony. *Since the Brits evidently destroyed the records to recycle paper in WW II, we'll never know fershure...but it doesn't look good.

John Cornwall, whose rank in the RN was "Boy", died manning a gun on HMS Chester at Jutland, severely wounded, he continued to serve at his station until he died. Other than his youth, nothing odd about it.

[Billy_Bishop]

Sounds a bit rum to me Steven.
A Spitfire pilot joined up with five aircraft during the B of B then realised the were 109s, one by one he nobbled them till he got all five.
Pretty good candidate for the VC, if only to boost morale in the darkest hour?
No one else saw this action and he was not credited with any of them, sounds a tad unfair, but then it's a cruel world!

Was it a Spit pilot? I thought it was a Hurricane pilot and the 5 was actually a flight of perhaps 8 or so 109's.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ginger.]

Sorry Al, it was a snapshot at full deflection that missed.:-[.

S/L Tom Gleave of 253 Squadron was another who saw action this day. At 32 years of age, Gleave wanted to command the squadron, but was told politely that RAF regulations did not permit commanding officers above the age of 26. But somehow, Tom Gleave managed to get part of his way by smooth talking his way into sharing the command with the newly appointed commanding officer. It seemed that this day Tom Gleave was 'Hun Hungry';

Detached from the rest of the squadron, his vee of three aircraft was vectored on to an enemy formation. Ahead of him and about 500 feet above Gleave saw line-astern formations of Bf109s riding above the haze, well spaced out and stretching as far as the eye could see. It was the culmination of all Gleaveĺs ambitions. Unhesitating, he flew right through the enemy fighters.
He remembered the scene clearly, and described the smell of the cordite, the hiss of the pneumatics, and the way the Hurricaneĺs nose dipped as the guns recoiled.
He gave the first Bf 109 a four-second burst and saw his bullets hitting the engine. He saw the Perspex of the hood shatter into fragments that sparkled in the sunlight. The Bf109 rolled onto its back, slewed, and then dropped, nose down, to the earth. Another enemy aircraft came into his sights. Gleave turned with him, firing bullets that brought black smoke from the wings before the Bf109 dropped vertically, still smoking. Gleave narrowly missed colliding with his third victim, and then gave him a three-second burst as the Messerschmitt pulled ahead and turned into the gunfire. The cockpit seemed empty; the pilot slumped forward out of sight. The Messerschmitt fell. The German pilots were trying to maintain formation and by now there was so much gunfire curving through the air that Gleave had the impression of flying through a gigantic golden bird-cage. A fourth Messerschmitt passed slightly above Gleave, and he turned and climbed to fire into the underside of its fuselage. But after two or three secondsĺ firing Gleave heard the ominous clicking that told him he had used up all his bullets. But already the fourth victim was mortally hit, and rolled on its back before falling away.

In spite of his age and rank, Gleave possessed the one quality that distinguished the ace pilots on both sides. It was something more important than flying skill, more important than keen eyesight, even more important than quick reaction times and the ability to ôaim offö for the correct deflection. Such men as Gleave had the nerve to fly on collision courses (that forward-facing guns require) very, very close to the enemy. Gleave was 175 yards from his first victim (very close by 1940 standards) and 120 yards from the second one. But the third and fourth Messerschmitts were hit from only 60 and 75 yards respectively. At such close quarters the eight machine guns did terrible damage.
Len Deighton Fighter Jonathan Cape 1977 p200

Afterwards Tom Gleave learned of the RAF hierarchy "Bullshit" for want of a better word as he calls it. When he made his claim for the four Bf109s, they stated that it was an impossibility to shoot them down in as many minutes. As a compromise, they allowed his claim as four probables

[Billy_Bishop]

Al, in a previous remark, you mentioned Markham's article and said that his comments on the endurance of a Nieuport 17 were at variance with your own reading. Looking back at that article, Markham used a simple chart to illustrate his point that Bishop had quite enough fuel to complete his mission, so long as he spent much of it at the 7000 ft altitude quoted in his report--the higher *you flew, the longer your gas held out. In other words, Markham PROVED that Bishop could flown the mission he reported.
Now I could say that Warneford flew a MS.3 Type L with an 80 hp Gnome rotary, and that Bishop flew a Nieuport 17C with a Le Rhone 110 hp 9J rotary--but would that mean anything to you?

Something else, I glossed over, which, on reflection is likely the MOST important difference between the Morane L and the Nieuport 17.

The Morane L, aside from being Heavier than the Nieuport 17, AND having a weaker engine, also has a PARASOL monoplane. The ONLY wing on this machine sets ABOVE the cockpit.

All Warneford would have had to do was set the switch in the cockpit, walk STRAIGHT forward to the propellor, swing the propellor, run around the prop and go straight back to the cockpit, and hop in.

Bishop on the other hand, would have had to set the switch in the cockpit, walk around the lower wing, swing the propellor, run BACK around the lower wing, and HOPE he reached the cockpit before the machine started moving, and most likely tipped over into the mud, breaking the prop.



VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

Sorry Al, it was a snapshot at full deflection that missed.

I know what it was, I remember reading now that Ginger Lacey came upon on Squadron of Messerschmidts, flying in formation, and shot some of them down before he was ever noticed.

I don't remember all the details, it was in an old series of books on WWII that I had that disappeared some years ago. But I remember a series of diagrams that showed his approach and attack on the formation. And it was described as a formation, not line ahead.

I'll have to see if I can find another reference to that.

VBR,

Al Lowe

If they were flying line astern they were almost certainly British, not German. What was the usual award for a spectacular "own goal"? Probably should be shaped like the south end of a duck flying north.

Someone should write a book about famous friendly fire kills. Like the Fokker triplane of Jasta 11 shot down in October 1917 by a German who had not yet heard that not all triplanes were Sopwiths.

I still suspect that Bishop beat up a French airfield, not a German one, and received the VC to cover up the scandal and maintain interallied deniability.

[Billy_Bishop]

If they were flying line astern they were almost certainly British, not German. What was the usual award for a spectacular "own goal"? Probably should be shaped like the south end of a duck flying north.

Someone should write a book about famous friendly fire kills. Like the Fokker triplane of Jasta 11 shot down in October 1917 by a German who had not yet heard that not all triplanes were Sopwiths.

I still suspect that Bishop beat up a French airfield, not a German one, and received the VC to cover up the scandal and maintain interallied deniability.

Not really very likely. The French LOVE to complain, and I'm sure they would have complained VERY loudly about that.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ginger.]

"I still suspect that Bishop beat up a French airfield, not a German one, and received the VC to cover up the scandal and maintain interallied deniability."

'ang on, 'ang on.
If this is true then a million 'umble apologies to Big Al .
Billy should have got a VC with swords, diamonds and oak leaf cluster for that escapade.

[Ginger.]

Al,
that Ginger Lacey illustration. Was it the one with a drawing of a bunch of 109s flying as if in an air display?
It then goes on to show how Ginger dived through them and came back up several times, nobbling one on each pass.
If it is you're showing your age mate!
I'm looking at it now, it's not in a book but carved....In a tablet of stone.