Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

Billy_Bishop · 11 May 2002, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Al,
that Ginger Lacey illustration. Was it the one with a drawing of a bunch of 109s flying as if in an air display?
It then goes on to show how Ginger dived through them and came back up several times, nobbling one on each pass.
If it is you're showing your age mate!
I'm looking at it now, it's not in a book but carved....In a tablet of stone.

That sounds about right, but it was done as an illustration in a book I had YEARS ago.

As for my age, well, I am 46.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Tom_Cervo · 11 May 2002, 06:15 AM

Quote:

I know what it was, I remember reading now that Ginger Lacey came upon on Squadron of Messerschmidts, flying in formation, and shot some of them down before he was ever noticed. *

I don't remember all the details, it was in an old series of books on WWII that I had that disappeared some years ago. *But I remember a series of diagrams that showed his approach and attack on the formation. *And it was described as a formation, not line ahead.

I'll have to see if I can find another reference to that.

VBR,

Al Lowe

It was "The Greatest Aces" by Edward Sims. Sims, a P-47 pilot and newspaper editor, wrote a series of books detailing the most memorable fighter missions of WW2 American and international aces, chosen by the pilots themseves, detailed in extensive personal interviews.
ANY book by Sims is very well worth buying sight unseen, since it consists of first-hand personal information and insights not likely to be available anywhere else.
They were all issued in paperback and should be found in those great shabby paperback stores so full of forgotten, cheap treasures.

Ron_F · 11 May 2002, 08:04 AM

hate to shoot back at ya Al, but the info i have for the mornae parasol type L from Janes ww1 book lists total wieght at 839lbs and useful at 550lbs with a 80hp engine.....

anyway,
Ginger, is there a date for this Hurricane pilot for this feat? i can ck the BoB book i have and see if its confirmed.

Billy_Bishop · 11 May 2002, 08:47 AM

Quote:

It was "The Greatest Aces" by Edward Sims. Sims, a P-47 pilot and newspaper editor, wrote a series of books detailing the most memorable fighter missions of WW2 American and international aces, chosen by the pilots themseves, detailed in extensive personal interviews.
ANY book by Sims is very well worth buying sight unseen, since it consists of first-hand personal information and insights not likely to be available anywhere else.
They were all issued in paperback and should be found in those great shabby paperback stores so full of forgotten, cheap treasures.

Actually, the first book I saw it in was older than that. There was a multi-volume set on WWII and this was one of the things in it.

VBR,

Al Lowe

11 May 2002, 08:50 AM

Just as a point of interest, the Canadian government yesterday officially declared the boyhood home of

Billy Bishop as a National Historic Site.

I received word on this yesterday mroning direct from the Museum, and the story was in today's edition of the local paper.

Billy_Bishop · 11 May 2002, 08:52 AM

Quote:

hate to shoot back at ya Al, but the info i have for the mornae parasol type L from Janes ww1 book lists total wieght at 839lbs and useful at 550lbs with a 80hp engine.....

My major source, Aircraft of WWI by Kenneth Munson lists the empty weight of the MS-L as 869 lbs, and the loaded weight at 1499 lbs. *With an 80 hp Gnome or Le Rhone.

By contrast, the Nieuport 17 is listed with an empty weight of 825 lbs and a loaded weight of 1246 lbs. with a 110 hp Le Rhone. *But it was widely believed at the time that Bishop's Nieuport had a 120 hp Le Rhone which was available at that time and was being fitted to Nieuport 17s.

By the way, the informtion here on the Aerodrome's aircraft section, nearly matches my own.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Ron_F · 11 May 2002, 11:52 AM

ok, i forget about the list here at the aerodrome.

windsock on Neiports is close to the wieghts u have.

tho, i have NO info on 120hp powered Nie17s. other than the bis with 130hp clergets.

11 May 2002, 01:32 PM

[Oh, good Christ, another LONG post...]

Mr. Cervo,
You are quite right about Sims; one of my first posts at The {New} Aerodrome Forum was the full interview with

Josef Jacobs from one of Sims' books...

Mr. Dieter,
Wasn't the inflammatory book that started this thread also released this week? If so, I'll leave it to others to make what they will of the timing of the dedication...

Here now is an excerpt from Warneford's report:

*"The joint on my petrol pipe and pump from the back tank was broken, and at about 2:40 A.M. I was forced to land and repair my pump.
* I landed at the back of a forest close to a farmhouse; the district is unknown on account of the fog and the continuous changing of course.
* I made preparations to set the machine on fire but apparently was not observed, so was enabled to effect a repair, and continued at 3:15 A.M. in a south-westerly direction after considerable difficulty in starting my engine single-handed."

*A few points, if I may?

*It's clear that Warneford did not know where he was; it is estimated about 35 miles inside the German lines. The Zeppelin, LZ.37 was downed near Ghent (its base was Gontrode); another Zepp, LZ.38, was destroyed in its shed at Evere by J.S. Mills. Warneford and Mills were on the same mission, to bomb the Zeppelin sheds, and were serving in RNAS Sqn 1 (later to become RAF Sqn 201) based at Dunkirk.

*I can't get any indication that it was a moonlit night, but it could safely assumed to be so: please note that this mission took place in the dead of night. There was a fairly widespread ground fog.

*Warneford supposedly repaired the fuel line using an empty cigarette holder, the ends of which he secured with tied strips from a handkerchief.

*The serial # of his Morane-Saulnier L was 3253; he was carrying, according to Whitehouse, six 20-lbs. Hale bombs.
*
*Warneford, after his single-handed take-off, still lost, recognized Cape Gris-Nez, landed there to refuel, and continued on to Dunkirk.

*He was awarded the Victoria Cross within 36 hours of his then-novel feat.

*On either 17 or 18 of June, 1915, Warneford was killed in a flying accident, when his Farman pusher either turned-over in mid-air or its tail assembly collapsed in a sharp turn. Warneford was flying with the American journalist Henry Needham, there to interview him about his victory. Supposedly both were thrown from the upside-down Farman...

* One last question? (I couldn't resist!)

* How was Garros able to make good his 'escape' from Berlin on 3 Aug 1914? Did he ask the soldiers guarding his aeroplane to 'assist' him in his take-off? Then again, what was his level of German language ability?

* History is sadly mute on these germain matters...

Fröhe Russische Öster,
Captain Lewis

11 May 2002, 01:42 PM

Quote:

[Oh, good Christ, another LONG post...]

...Mr. Dieter,
Wasn't the inflammatory book that started this thread also released this week? If so, I'll leave it to others to make what they will of the timing of the dedication...

The book hit the bookstores within the last 24 hours. I got the call from the independant bookstore I deal with (the one that my wife works for) this afternoon at 3:00 P.M. saying it was in.
I'll advise the group when my reviews for this book are published.

Billy_Bishop · 11 May 2002, 01:49 PM

Quote:

ok, i forget about the list here at the aerodrome.

windsock on Neiports is close to the wieghts u have.

tho, i have NO info on 120hp powered Nie17s. other than the bis with 130hp clergets.

The indication I get from Squadron/Signal's "Nieuport Fighters in Action" is that if it had a 120 hp engine, it was in actuality a Nieuport 23. And the ONLY difference between the 17 and the 23 was the engine. There's no indication of any significant weight changes.

VBR,

Al Lowe