Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

Billy_Bishop · 15 May 2002, 08:20 AM

Your point is well made, and no offence taken, by me at least.

VBR,

Al Lowe

vince14 · 15 May 2002, 09:24 AM

We're not still banging on about Bishop are we? :

Billy_Bishop · 15 May 2002, 03:28 PM

Well, we ain't talking about Wendell Wilkie!!

VBR,

Al Lowe

Billy_Bishop · 22 May 2002, 04:52 AM

Ok, here's a question that came up in an email conversation I had with a most learned person.

Does ANYONE know if ANYONE else mentions the missing Lewis gun OTHER than

Willy Fry?

And, does ANYONE other than Willy Fry mention Bishop landing between his attack and reaching Filescamp farm?

Now, if anyone else does mention this, were they making their own observations? Or, was this spurred on by comments made by Fry???

Enquiring minds want to know.

VBR,

Al Lowe

Wayne Ralph · 22 May 2002, 02:33 PM

Dear Al Lowe, and others,

I have just completed my review of The Making of

Billy Bishop for CBC Radio, Winnipeg, Manitoba.

I will be interviewed by Ron Robinson Friday on tape, and the tape will be broadcast on the Manitoba CBC Radio network in the 6:00 AM to 9:00 AM slot, Saturday or Sunday morning, 25 or 26 May.

On your question about the Lewis machine gun, my research shows that it surfaces in print with Arthur Bishop's biography, The Courage of the Early Morning, in 1965, then is repeated by Fry in Air of Battle in 1974. I invite anyone to unearth an earlier reference in print - I would like to hear of it.

If the story of casting it overboard due to weight was told by Billy Bishop to his son, which one scholar has said is the case, that is about the best evidence we have that it did happen.

However, I don't believe the story.

I have never found Arthur Bishop to be a diligent scholar, and rarely does he do any original research. If he is relying on his own and his father's memory, it is a shaky foundation.

In addition, I don't know that Fry uses the story in public until 1974, long after Arthur Bishop mentions it. If Fry was told that story by Billy Bishop on June 2nd, 1917, why did it never become public? Why did Bishop fail to mention it in Winged Warfare, yet mention his complimenting of his armourer after getting out of the Nieuport with an absent Lewis??

On Greenhous' standard of a civil trial, i.e., the balance of probabilities, I find in favour of Bishop on June 2nd, 1917, and against him in May-June 1918. I think there are possibilities for June 2nd that are not investigated - moreover, Fry's version as solid evidence in any court is questionable for several complex reasons.

The victory claims in 1918 are a different challenge, given that few if any in 1918 were prepared to question a VC-recipient. As one Great War pilot said to me inan interview 11 years ago, "Young man, Victoria Crosses do not grow on trees, and you do not tell a VC winner what he can, and cannot do!!"

On the whole, I recommend the Greenhous book to enthusiasts - its point of view is clear, it reads easily, a lot of information is now in one source volume, and it is not hard to follow the arguments. One does not have to agree with its findings to get value from The Making of Billy Bishop

Cheers, Wayne Ralph, author

Ron_F · 22 May 2002, 02:40 PM

Al,

i too, am curious about landing other than at his aerodrome. the only mention i see, after reading the markham article, its mentioned he landed to get his bearings. the other source being Fry's statement.

none of his books, citations (that i know of) etc, say he landed to get his bearings.

i had thought that in this article, Markham states that he landed to get his bearings from the official report by BB, but i cant find it now skimming the text of the article...

Billy_Bishop · 22 May 2002, 04:03 PM

I have a feeling that Markham got his info about Bishop landing from Fry. There is no mention of it in Bishop's report, nor any other report.

Bishop does not mention it, neither does his son in "Courage of the Early Morning." This has me wondering whether or not it actually happened.

VBR,

Al Lowe

22 May 2002, 04:31 PM

Now the Great

Werner Voss, now that is a real pilot. bishop cant hang wit 7 d7's on him like Voss wit 7 s.e.5's

The Legend

Billy_Bishop · 22 May 2002, 06:24 PM

Uh, Voss lost that engagement. :-(

VBR,

Al Lowe

Wayne Ralph · 24 May 2002, 11:16 AM

The review of The Making of

Billy Bishop via CBC Radio 990 AM, Winnipeg, Manitoba, will be broadcast Saturday morning, May 25th, at about 8:45 Central Daylight Savings Time. Interview is by Ron Robinson, host of the Weekend early morning show on Saturdays and Sundays.

I believe that CBC Radio can be heard in RealRadio format by going to <cbc.ca> and following the links to Manitoba CBC and the Weekend Morning show on that regional network.

The discussion about the book may be picked up by CBC Radio nationally - or they may find it too provocative...

Wayne Ralph, author, BARKER VC