Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

[Droops]

I had avoided this thread since its inception, and have just spent 4+ hours reading it.

I hope that something good comes of it. Certainly, its been very enlightening and interesting to read so many 'leading lights' discuss this topic at length.

VBR,

John

[Kory_Clark]

Well certainly this book is a "must read". As a boy I was one whom idolized Bishop and at this point in my life it has evolved to : "This guy had issues".

So this latest book credits Bish with 20+ victories. Well that my friends is still "Canone" status.

I would like to specifically address comments about his 1918 victory run. Why is this so unbelievable? Obveously Bishop WAS a very good shot, from his accounts he felt the need to usually only make one pass at his target (whether or not they were even hurt when they dived OOC i leave to other obveous threads).

I liken him ALOT to René Fonck, another "Medal Chaser" whom made a great many unconfirmed claims, thus an "over-claimer"(which by this definition all of the aces on this site are with few exceptions like Lufbery). René drove a spad, Bish the se5a, both planes blew the competition away as far as top speed. Both killing styles lacked pinache', just quick sneak attacks that left an opponent killed, hurt, or brown-gonched. This is the preferred way to wage war in ANY theater as after the attack is made the opponent rarely gets to shoot back. I really doubt Fonck had so much as a loose thread of fabric on his kites in 1918. He too was a blowhard and Obveously "Lied" about some claims. Perhaps their ego's could not fathom actually missing once in a while. The only difference, I argue is there is no VC for the French and no medal with it's strict criteria...if there was, surely Fonch would have been awarded it without witnesses himself, being he too was a Lone Wolf whom "Perform(ed) little coups of audacity which amused (him)".

Ohhh unfair to compare to Fonck i already see people posting, well i get the same feeling when Barker is compared to Bishop. Completely different case. I say UNFAIR that Fonch or EvR or dare i even say Fat Hermann Göring is never scrutinized for their WWI records so much as Bishop!

On the matter of the Aerodrome Raid...well we will just never know. Fact is, the doubters need to decide: was Bish a good pilot or not for pete's SAKE! If he was...why can't he get so many victories being that he was ALSO a GOOD shot (just try and argue he wasn't). If he wasn't, well having problems landing on a normal FLAT surface, we are to believe he can just easily coast up and down on uneven ground! Whatever, I don't care, the problem of awarding the medal without(possibly) witnesses, is not his. He didn't put himself up for the medal...

Some are seeking the Truth, well i say BULLSHIT. How many other nations pick apart the dubious war heros of their past, the way CANADA does. Picked apart and hardly ever HONORED(Bishop is one of the few we EVER did HONOR on a nationwide scale). Yes perhaps Bish does have it coming, being he sits on the top of commonweath score lists...but not OVER and OVER and OVER and does this latest book bring us closer, well i will find out for myself...i doubt it.

[EARTHLING]

What I find extraordinary Albert is that everybody else seems to have fought Fokker Triplanes during those three weeks with the exception of WAB. viz:
56 Squadron 'High in the Empty Blue' Alex Revell:
June 13 A & C Flights Copeland climbing to the aid of a lone SE5 fighting a number of Triplanes. A flight was heavily engaged with a formation of Fokker Triplanes over Le Sars.
May 28th Crowe (succeeded Mannock in the command of 85 squadron) Flying southwards along the Front Lines searching for his patrol, Crowe spotted several large formations of Fokker Triplanes and Pfalz D.111s.

19 Squadron Derek Palmer

5th June At 11 a.m. on an offensive patrol the Dolphins encountered seven enemy aircraft triplanes.
17th June The Dolphin formation had seen in the West a formation of 12 enemy aircraft, triplanes and Albatross scouts.

And so it goes on. Everybody else seems to be fighting Triplanes even though only 321 appeared to have been built except one person.
1 McCudden fought Triplanes
2 Mannock fought Triplanes
3 Ira Jones fought triplanes

It does seem to me passing strange that only one person never seemed to encounter them.

VBR
Peter S

[EARTHLING]

What I find extraordinary Albert is that everybody else seems to have fought Fokker Triplanes during those three weeks with the exception of WAB. viz:
56 Squadron 'High in the Empty Blue' Alex Revell:
June 13 A & C Flights Copeland climbing to the aid of a lone SE5 fighting a number of Triplanes. A flight was heavily engaged with a formation of Fokker Triplanes over Le Sars.
May 28th Crowe (succeeded Mannock in the command of 85 squadron) Flying southwards along the Front Lines searching for his patrol, Crowe spotted several large formations of Fokker Triplanes and Pfalz D.111s.

19 Squadron Derek Palmer

5th June At 11 a.m. on an offensive patrol the Dolphins encountered seven enemy aircraft triplanes.
17th June The Dolphin formation had seen in the West a formation of 12 enemy aircraft, triplanes and Albatross scouts.

And so it goes on. Everybody else seems to be fighting Triplanes even though only 321 appeared to have been built except one person.
1 McCudden fought Triplanes
2 Mannock fought Triplanes
3 Ira Jones fought triplanes

It does seem to me passing strange that only one person never seemed to encounter them.

VBR
Peter S

[Billy_Bishop]

If need be, I can go through an pull up at least a dozen names of pilots from 85 and other squadrons in the same vicinty that have never claimed a Tripe, but I'll start with just these three.

Elliot White Springs, who had 4 victories whilst with 85 did not claim a single tripe during that time, or ever.

Spencer B. "******" Horn, who was in 85 Squadron does not have any Triplanes on his scorecard.

During the time Mannock was with 85 Squadron, he has ONE Tripe on his.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

This is well and truly amazing. *I haven't stopped and had a look around this 'hood in awhile, but Lowe and behold, not much has changed.

I'll repeat that . . . .

I'd rather you didn't.

[wings]

What does this new book say about the Bishop victory on August 16, 1917, over a 2-seater, all of the wings falling off at 14,000 ft?

[Tom_Cervo]

I say UNFAIR that Fonch or EvR or dare i even say Fat Hermann Göring is never scrutinized for their WWI records so much as Bishop!

Actually they are, just not in this thread. The Fall '95 issue of Over the Front goes over Goering's claims in great detail, and they are reasonably credible, not much overclaiming. Fonck has been compared to Guynemer, whose claims were also very accurate, and Rickenbacher has been compared to Luke, with the same result. The front runner of all three services has a lot of OOC's and the second one on the list has a lot of wrecks and comparable German losses.
It may be of some comfort to know that George Buerling's claims have very high accuracy compared to actual losses.

[gregoire]

The problem with Fonck is that the french system was much more severe than the british one and that fonck is credited with 75 victory and not 127 as he claim. It is also true that the german system was also more strict than the british and do not rely only on the pilot sole testimony. That do not mean i believe bishop was a liar that mean I am more doubtfull on bishop total tally than I am on non british pilot
As a lot of people will do the german ace I will do the french if we look at the score of Guynemer
only 33 of its victory can be matched with german record (from Guynemer les avion d'un as) interstingly at least one of its probable can be matched on the german record

I do not doubt that the homologation was much more easier for fonck (at least at the begining) then if we look at Fonck's claim the proportion of non awarded victory is constant, what I guess is that the pilot knew when he could claim and only do it withon such condition
I even tend to believe that if RFC was overclaiming (I do not mean they were dishonest simply that they reportede the fact) the french (and US and german) air force were underclaiming by looking at the recent biography on Dorme of his 29 non comfirmed kill (the most recent figure but some other give him much more) at least 7 can be matched with german record and it is known that dorme only reported when he knew he could get confirmation (I guess he did not want to pay the champagne) in the other hand only 13 of his confirmed victory can be matched with german loss

[Billy_Bishop]

What does this new book say about the Bishop victory on August 16, 1917, over a 2-seater, all of the wings falling off at 14,000 ft?

Hi Jasta, long time no see!!

In response to your question, probably not a whole lot. I don't think Mr. Greenhous intended to scrutinize Bishop's career on a victory by victory basis. But if Steven Dieter sees this, I'm sure he can tell us much better.


VBR,

Al