Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

[CaptainLewis]

Dear Alex and Wayne,
Would the above, as to there not being any witnesses to Bishop's 'feat', also be true for Barker's last mission?
VBR,
Captain Lewis

[Richard_Schrader]

Alex;
All I can say is that BB is our favorite dead horse to beat!

Richard

[SEDieter]

In response to Mr. Revell's question, I offer a quote from LCol David Bashow's book Knights of the Air, page 116:

This recommendations was completely without precedent, for there were no witneses. However, Rule Numbe 12 of the Warrant for the Order of the Victoria Cross states that, in the absence of the establishment of a claim on the spot, the monarch will confer the award, "but never without conclusive proof of the performance of the act of bravery for which the claim is made." This statement implies that a thorough investigation of the circumstances of the action would be required. When higher headquarters sought further supplemental information to the Victoria Cross recommendation on the raid, this was provided in a report to 13th Wing on June 30 by Grid Caldwell, the acting commanding officer of 60 Squadron. After a full nine weeks of staffing and consideration by the War Office, the award was duly gazetted on August 11, 1917.

Evidently, someone somewhere felt the award was justified. After all the VC hasn't handed out frivolously.

[Ginger.]

And I Quote.............
"For the VC it is stipulated that eye witness accounts are not only necessary but must also be in the handwriting of the witness, unless the man cannot write or is unable to write because of wounds, in which case the account must be taken down by an officer and certified correct".

"...If one was ever over the Salient in the autumn of 1917 and saw an SE5 fighting like hell amidst a heap of Huns, one would find nine times out of ten that the SE was flown by Rhys Davids".

"It's a cruel world Herr Hauptmann. You said so yourself".

[Billy_Bishop]

Does anyone have ANY proof that there were NOT any witnesses?? I think there were. But that's just my opinion.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Billy_Bishop]

Why oh why are people flogging this dead horse yet again. Both sides are in entrenched positions and neither will ever convince the other of their error.

Dear Mr. Revell;

The primary reason this time is thanks to Mr. B. Greenhous and his latest attempt at attacking Billy Bishop. *Otherwise, I don't think this thread would be here. *Really, I don't!!

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Ron_F]

<What is the specific source for the Jasta 20 information? Can we see it or get a copy of it? >

<
The weekly Kofl 6 Armee German reports covering Bishop's section of the front during 1917 are in the Ferko Collection in Dallas. Anybody can order copies. >

hmm, sounds just like what jasta would say....

[Wayne Ralph]

Dear Captain Lewis,

Barker had no aerial witnesses to the battle on 27 October 1918 - the last stages of his fight were witnessed by men in the front lines near Valenciennes. He force-landed near a British Kite Balloon Section, No 29, and was removed from his Snipe unconscious, bleeding profusely.

Brigadier General McNaughton of the Canadian Artillery said in an interview in the 1960s that the troops in the front line had watched Barker fight, and cheered him on as he defeated his enemies.

However, there is no evidence that any of those troops were interviewed, or McNaughton provided witness testimony. They may have, but there is no paper evidence of them doing so. I do not know if it was destroyed or never existed.

The German records do confirm the loss of a two-seater that closely matches the time and location of Barker's initial victory. There are no German records to support the loss of three other D.VIIs at that time of day.

Barker did not complete or sign the combat report, but it is conceivable that he made a verbal report to Squadron Leader Leman of 201. When he might have been conscious to do this is unknown. The earliest written correspondence from Barker is at the end of the first week of November, AFTER he has been recommended for the VC.

Leman had to recommend Barker for the VC, and others at higher formations had to agree. It is quite possible that Wing or Brigade commanders, knowing who Barker was, encouraged the submission of a recommendation. Barker already had a DSO and Bar, an MC and two Bars, a Croix-de-Guerre, and an Italian Silver Medal for Valour.

The pilots at 201 didn't like Barker much, and weren't very happy to see him get the VC - after all they were fighting the war in older Camels, when he had a Snipe, and he was not a full member of the squadron. Leman and Barker were friends from 1916 and Corps Cooperation activities.

Barker did say in a January 1919 interview that he had been careless and had tangled with about 15 enemy fighters that morning. That is the only comment he offered to anybody about the specifics of what had happened. Journalists had a habit of asking him about it, and he would chuckle in an easygoing way and say, "Well, its all down in the Gazette. Go read that - I have nothing to add..."

[SEDieter]

Just to advise you all, the release date for The Making of Billy Bishop by Brereton Greenhous has been moved.

It will now be shipped on Wednesday, May 8, 2002

[alex_revell]

Mr Dieter
You quote Grid Caldwell's report to Wing on 30th June as a positive reason why Wing forwarded the recommendation for the award. Have you actually seen this report. I have and from memory it merely reiterated the fact that there were no witnesses to the raid.
Regards Alex R.