Billy Bishop: 'Liar and Cheat'

[Wayne Ralph]

A galley proof copy of "The Making of Billy Bishop" is on its way to me from Dundurn Press. I will be reviewing it for CBC Radio in Winnipeg, Manitoba in late May, and I hope to publish a review of the book with one of the national publications. The debate still continues in the mass media, but the sophistication of the exchanges is not particularly high. A panel discussion and debate between the biographer, Greenhous, and "Knights of the Air" author, Bashow, will take place at the annual Canadian Air Force Airpower conference in June in Ontario.

[Ron_F]

wayne,
interesting info on that soon to be debate. will there be transcripts of that for us to read? or would we just have to be millionaires and fly there to it?

[sfabert]

Does anyone know the extent of the documentary record concerning Bishop's unusually short stay with 85 Squadron? I have always thought that his sudden departure created a greater appearance of irregularity in his war record than anything else. Superficially it leaves the impression that someone higher up had a major loss of confidence in the man. Is there a more benign explanation in the records, or is this yet another mystery?

[Hugh_A._Halliday]

There is a benign explanation. *As of the late summer and early autumn of 1918 Canadian authorities were looking at organizing a distinct Canadian Air Force overseas and Bishop was seconded to Canadian Military Headquarters in London to assist in this project. *Those wishing to read more on this may consult S.F. Wise, CANADIAN AIRMEN AND THE FIRST WORLD WAR, p.608.

As per Ron's inquiries about the debate ("Will there be transcripts of that for us to read ?"), *papers presented at the conference are routinely published several months afterwards (the biggest delays arise when people drag their feet at turning over copies of their papers to conference organizers). *Whether a debate will lend itself to publication in the "Proceedings" is another matter. *Copies of the "Proceedings" go to those who attend the conference plus a few military libraries.

"Or would we just have to be millionaires and fly there to it ?" I am sure that if you check with the organizers (I have named them earlier - see Post No.32 in this thread) and with your friendly airline you will find that the cost of attending the conference will hardly require a six-figure salary. *Your American dollar will buy you *about $ 1.40 (Canadian) so even the exchange rate encourages you to attend.

[Billy_Bishop]

Al Lowe: "Too bad Ben Greenhous won't frequent this place. *I'd have a field day!"

The 8th Annual Air Force Historical Conference (Canadian Armed Forces) will be held at the NAVCANADA Training Centre, Cornwall, Ontario, 18-21 June. *On the program for the 20th will be a debate between Ben Greenhous and David Bashow.

Further details about the conference may be obtained via Captain Ben Bond, 1 Canadian Air Division Headquarters, PO Box 17000 Station Forces, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3J 3Y5 (telephone 204-833-2500 extension 6532, FAX 204-833-2512, email Bond.BB@forces.ca.

I don't suppose anyone would like to sponser my trip there, would you?.....Oh well. it was an idea.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[alex_revell]

Al,
You say you don't agree with Phil's article. Fine - that your privilige but why don't you tell us why you don't. Lets have reasons, at least. Take the parts of his conclusions you don't agree with and lets hear contrary evidence you've unearthed. Or is it don't like, not don't agree.
Regards
Alex

[SEDieter]

Wayne,

I've had the bound galleys for The Making of Billy Bishop for nearly a month. My review of it will be featured in the Kitchener-Waterloo newspaper The Record about mid-May. A more in-depth review will be featured in the quarterly periodical Canadian Military History, published by the Laurier Centre for Military, Strategic and Disarmament Studies at Wilfrid Laurier University.

[Billy_Bishop]

Al,
You say you don't agree with Phil's article. Fine - that your privilige but why don't you tell us why you don't. Lets have *reasons, at least. Take the parts of his conclusions you don't agree with and lets hear contrary evidence you've unearthed. Or is it don't like, not don't agree.
Regards
Alex

Well, for one, Mr. Markham mentions the range of the Nieuport 17 and that for Bishop to be able to fly to the Estourmel area and return would require him to fly at a specific altitude for most of his time in the air. *

In general I don't have a problem with that (generalized) statement, but, I've seen, in various books the endurance of the Nieuport 17 varies from a low of 1 and 3/4 hours to over 2 and 1/4 hours, with little or no mention at what heights these endurance levels were reached.

Not having been there myself, I find it difficult to believe that I could say Bishop didn't have enough fuel. *In addition to which, his landing on his own side of the lines to get directions MIGHT be a way to explain his time away yet not running out of fuel.

Then there is the treatment of the "evidence" as presented by Phil Townsend, first in Dan McCaffery's book, then later examined by Phil Markham, in which Townsend RE-Qualifies his remarks as Hearsay. *Still, it is my understanding that Townsend did not rescend his statement, only qualified it.

Those are my key issues. *

I'll have to read over the article again to see what else I disageed with.

VBR,

Al Lowe

[Wayne Ralph]

Dear Ron F. and Others,

Re-Air Force Conference and Billy Bishop Book Debate

The 8th Annual Air Force Historical Conference is relatively inexpensive to attend. The speakers are already chosen, I believe, but others can sign up as attendees.

It is being held at the NAV Canada Training Centre in Cornwall, Ontario from June 18th to June 21st. Main topics are Peacekeeping and Peacemaking; Humanitarian Relief; Role in NATO; and International Training.

The contact for further information is: Captain James Pickett, 59 Topaz Road, Winnipeg, Manitoba R2Y 1L4 - telephone is (604) 833-2500, extension 5152. Email is <jpickett@escape.ca>

I don't know the particulars of the Greenhous-Bashow bun fight, but Hugh Halliday will know more about it. Email him.

[Hugh_A._Halliday]

I am chairing the debate, and hence maintaining my neutral stance to the end.

Wearing a second hat, I shall also be delivering a paper: "No.441 Squadron and its Changing Role in NATO".