Wing Flappers

AAC Cadet Leader · 21 April 2004, 10:42 AM

jempie,

Another wowwer! Keep on flappin!

Rod_Filan · 21 April 2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jempie@Apr 21 2004, 02:16 PM
[b] The photo of the Ornithopter n° 1 of A. de la Hault!
It's not impossible Villard is indeed that tall man left! (?) of the machine?

OK... the man in the suit, hands in pockets = Henry Villard
next to him closest to the machine I thought might be Julius Miesse.

But does not any issue of "La Conquête de l'Air" have a photo of Adhémar de la Hault. ? to compare the likeness of the man in the 1908 photo.

Even without a good photo of De la Hault... if you compare this photo (one of yours again... 1915 or so)==> http://www.earlyaviators.com/villar02.jpg to the 1908 photo... I would bet you are right.

Rod_Filan · 21 April 2004, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jempie@Apr 21 2004, 02:16 PM
[b] Haha! !

JUST NOW traced a photo of Ornithopter n °1 of A. de la Hault!!

Specifications included as well !

It's mentioned the blades (wings) trace a figure 8. Does that mean each blade occilated up and down in a figure 8 motion and also rotated on their own axes. So as the blade went down it was horizontal and when going up, it would be vertical (?)

Furthermore, if I have this right, "stearing : altering by the inclinations of wings" would mean to turn (or roll); one wing would trace the figure 8 on a higher plane than the other (or one wing dropping the pattern lower would perhaps be more mechanically practical).

Thanks for finding it Jempie !

BTW did Jane's call it the "Flapper" because it was known as such or was it just a loose translation of the word "Battante" which would have been used in most contemp. French publications in reference to this ornithopter. (?)

Rod_Filan · 21 April 2004, 07:48 PM

Jempie,

Just now I noticed the postcard photo does indeed show a "wing"
http://204.83.160.230/archive/m/images/190...Ornithopter.jpg

However it is not yet fabric covered (&#33

Just hoop frame.

In fact both wing frames can be seen hanging in downward position. Above both appears to be more framework but I now see that as being the rafters (roof framing) of the workshop ! This postcard shows the complete machine... !

jempie · 22 April 2004, 05:49 AM

Hi Rod!

Dind't notice it the framework of the wing was present indeed!
But how the technical working principles were (the mechanical construction of that rotating wheel) I dont know!
I imagine that those wings weren't fitted into the centerpoint of the rotating wheel but at the outside circle of it....when the wing stays horizontal all the time the wing however discribes following my observations than onlt a circle movement! But going up and down...
Ther must have thus been some other mechanismus in it which made it making a "8" movement!
But how this was realised isn't clear to me!

What goes on Adhemar de la Hault : I haven't real good photos on him detected....all I can tell is that he shows a quite older man 1929 on a quite dull photo shot at the occasion of the 25th anniversary of the "Conquête de l'Air"! So a 20 years after he constructed this Ornithopter 1908.

The photo I found is shot into one of the two the Half Century Exhibition Palaces at Brussels. One is now the Brussels Air Museum, the other one
is today the Car Museum (Autoworld)
Immense halls, but notice it's into the annex buildings of these Villard did on experimental research to contruct his helicopter between 1902 and 1913! During these years he contructed a lot of flying models working on clockwork mechanismus. Seen he was also during these years the Scientific Technical Adviser to the Conquëte de L'Air....it's not wondering he might have been involved into the development of these A. de la Hault Ornithopters!

Probably the photo postcard , was shot into the annex buildings of the Half Century Exhibition Halls ? Fact is that it is indeed not so wondering to see Henry (or Henri) Villard on these photos at all!

Than Flapper: Aîle battante = "batting wings" or "Flapwings"!
Ornithopter = engine which works on principal of birdsflight or "flapping wings"...

So the "de la Hault" machine was a Ornithopter indeed!

VBR

Jempie.

jempie · 22 April 2004, 06:45 AM

Hi!

Found another photo on the A de la Hault machine!
The tryout of it into a field!
But it never lifted from the ground !

Probably the man with bowl hat is A; de la Hault and it shouldn't wonder me if it was Villard who piloted it!
But the photo is much to impure to judge about!

Notice indeed the assymetric disposition of the wingfitting !
Also the strip to below to the structure was probably part of a system to inclinate the wings and eventually to let rotating them around their axes ? Maybe commanded by a dispositif which is to see hold into the left hand of the pilot?
In fact needed would be a detailed photo of that mechanical part and a working principle legend!

But who has it ?

VBR

Jempie

jempie · 22 April 2004, 06:55 AM

Hi!

Tried to understand it a bit!
So to see on the axe were at least two wheels fitted of different diameter!
The wings were fitted assymetric to the outside wheel and than the other connecting of the wing was probably fitted assymetric to the inside bigger in diameter wheel.I guess this caused when turning the rotating of the wings around their own axe somewhere due to the difference in diameter of these two?

VBR

Jempie

AAC Cadet Leader · 22 April 2004, 10:33 AM

jempie Posted on Apr 22 2004, 05:45 AM

Quote:

Notice indeed the assymetric disposition of the wingfitting !

Jempie,
I had to look back and forth a number of times to see the what was different. Why do you think the center wing bracings in the left wing were not placed parallell as in the right? And wing tip rib is missing in left one. Is left wing also slightly larger? Why?

jempie · 23 April 2004, 05:18 AM

Hi!

I accept both wings were identically constructed anyway, even this isn't quite well to see on these potos!
However in vertical upstand, if we accept the left wing is seen from frontside, the right wing is seen from rearside compared with the position of left wing!(Thus turned over 180 ° compared with left wing! )
This is to be concluded at hand of both horizontal renforcement ribs into wingstructure...
But seen I haven't any idea about how the workingprinciples were of this engine, I cannot explain!

In fact it's so that only into horizontal position and going downwards these wings could give an upwards pushing force!
When goin from down to up the position of these wings had to come to vertical position, otherwise it would push the engine again down and neutralising the upwards lift from first action when wings going were down!

But seen they speak from a "8" making movement, I haven't any idea how that was realised!

To understand the full working principles we should need to have a detailed explaining text and details of mechanismus parts!
Which is not the case!

Notice on other wingflappers we have also only a photo mainly!
No plandrawings or mechanismus details!
So let's accept the photos here and further see it as one of the so many constructed at the time!

Ill fated as it never lifted!

What goes on the postcard with that person on it, Villard ?
I still doubt in fact...could be that is indeed Adhemar de la Hault...?
Why should it be Villard and not A. de la Hault standing on there with his invention?
If we think a logic way it should nearly to be "de la Hault" indeed?

Problem is that I don't have at this moment photos at hand from de la Hault about that period!
Villard had only a moustache, A. de la Hault seems to have got a moustache with ringbeard. In face de la haumlt seems to had have a more filled round face while Villard had a longer tiny or smaller head than de la Hault.
And indeed you should expect rather A. de la Hault being photographed with his invented machine than Villard!
Therefore I accept that question from Rod for a photo of Adhemar de la Hault! But the earliest photo I could find on him was from 1929!
Thus from a 21 years later! He died during 1934!
But I do not have a biography on him!
He was one of the first aeronautes in Belgium "Life Member" of de Aéro-Club de Belgique and holder of balloon pilot license n°9.

However the license number mean anything seen the licenses were granted to all members for the first time during somewhere 1909, and at hand of the than excisting pilots members list by alfabetic order granted!
Only later the licenses were than granted at hand of the needed examens done by the members and than added to the list each time following the date they acquired it!
In total pre-1914, 64 balloon pilots licenses were granted and the last one was to a woman (only female licensed balloon pilot pre-WWI) in Belgium.
Amongst thes 64 were also a number of strangers, Frenchmen, and others! It's so that when the Aé.C.B. was grounded, this happend at Brussels 1901, and amongst the founders were Fernand Jacobs (president of Aé.C.B.) Adhémar de la Hault and the French aéronaut Capazza!
Some of the Belgians were also member of the French Aéro-Club de France!

VBR

Jempie

jempie · 23 April 2004, 05:33 AM

Missing rib in wing ?

No idea, but it would be no logic if wingsurfaces should have had different sizes! Mayb on e wingsurface got some damages and the rib was added when repaired? But indeed it seems this outside third rib was absent into right wing...
Strange, but I can't explain!

Jempie