Voisin Farman plane and Farman plane

[jempie]

Hi!

Again here than...

Voisin was a charpenter firm who constructed many planes for pioneer contructors and aviators!
It's difficult to claim what should be really Voisin and others!

The Farman n°1 and N° 1bis...is this to be considered as a Farman plane or Voisin one ?

Fact is that it was painted on it "Henri Farman n°1 and n°1 bis...." but further the planes were constructed by Voisin!

Happy Easter : the question here is a bit as follows :

Who was first : "the chicken or the egg ?"

It's always possible Farman gave Voisin the order to construct a plane following +/- his ideas ?

Fatc is that 1909 Farman started conructing his own planes!
The "Herni Farman n° III" upon tail
and under it its on the original to read:
"Henri Farman-Constructeur"

That's in fact the reason I accpet the n° III was the real first Henri Farman plane! Into publications before this (contemporary magazines) they speak about Farman flying a Voisin plane!

The fact on postcards the speak about "l'aéroplane Farman..."....?
That they do as well from other aviators of this time!


It's all discussible! I know!

Must a by Voisin constructed plane from (or piloted by) Farman be considered as a "Farman plane"?

One thing I know for sure is that himself started only with the "n° III" as "own contructor" of this type of planes!

Due which I accpeted his "n° III" to be his first "own contructed one"!

VBR

Jempie.

P.S. see the two others who follows: n° 1 and n° 1bis!

[jempie]

Here the Voisin constructed "Henri Farman n°1"

[jempie]

Here the n°1bis his n°1 modified into a triplane!
Notice also the vertical added vertical plans between upper and underwing!
The inside ones appered at Ghent 1908 (May-June) on a contemporary photo I have on the subject and where probably Farman's idea!
That was added on the moment he few his distance record (1.240 km) with Archdeacon on board I mean to remember!
29th may 1908 131m on "Voisin" by Farman
2nd june 1908 1km 240 on "Voisin" by Farman

I have it so published into a 1910 printed bookwork!

It's even so that in here the little jump (+/- 50 m.) from Delagrange with Farman in France (I accept Issy-les-Moulineaux) as passenger some weeks before wasn't listed as "record"!
That was "fished up again" by the French only later to have the claim to have flown as first in France and in the world with one passenger!
However I have that 1908 artikel as well indeed with photo of both aviators in the Delagrange (Voisin) plane in which that jump is described indeed! If at ghent that 131 m jump was accepted as "record", its correct the +/- 50 m jump had to be it as well....But records had to be homologated and some rules had to be followed for more...
At Ghent this was the case, but in France ? Was it stated following those rules? Were there Aé.C.F. officials present to homologate this flight?

But in fact it's far from my bed away such discussions!

In this French book (1910) , Ader's first jump (1897) was already recognised as the first flight ever! They fished that up again when they came to the conclusion Santos-Dumont wasn't the first to have done a flight but the Wright Brothers! Before they saw Santos-Dumont as the first one to have done a flight 1906!

VBR

Jempie.

[Rod_Filan]

Jempie,

Thank you for your explaination of the Voisin-Farman a/c. I accept that the first Farman a/c completely designed and built by Henri Farman was Farman III.

What I have difficulty in grasping is the knowledge that Henri Farman did not start constucting any aeroplane until mid-1909. That seems a long time. A near two full years after his first flight at Issy. However, I interpret correctly now the chronology stated at Ralph Cooper's site based on the information you have given.

Your chicken and egg analogy is fitting. Happy Easter !

VBR
Rod

[Rod_Filan]

Originally posted by jempie@Apr 11 2004, 04:55 PM
[b] At Ghent I saw photos on which he placed two vertical plans between the upper and underwing on the supports "just beside the gondola"!
Some sail pieces...Just as on Farman 1 bis inside ones, but there they were placed on one support further away of the one beside the gondola!
Not full pieces of sail but with a "retangular hole"in it to have a good view!

Jempie, I quoted this from the Euler thread.

Is this photo the Farman-modified "just beside the gondola" vertical planes Voisin-Farman I ?

http://members.shaw.ca/flyingaces/images1/Farman_PC.jpg

[jempie]

Hi Rod!

First : what goes on the Farman n°II ?
It's possible this was perhaps his first on contstructed one?
Must once overlook my magazines if I have a picture on this one!

What I know is that the n° III was his own construction, but the n° 2 ?
Honest no idea at this moment about!

Second : the postcard you shows is definitly a photo shot at Ghent 1908!
The "Farman airfield" as has been called there was situated at Ghent-Mariakerke! It seems it was used for a while as such afterwards as well.

I made a scan from a big published Ghent 1908 photo from just the horizon line! As you can notice the treesline about middle my scan the outlining there is identical!On both is however nearly not the vertical panel good to see! But was fuitted to the first upstanding supports next to the gondola of plane! In have seen another photo somewhere on which it was better to see than on ours here! But there was indeed a rectangle piece (as a sort of window) in it to allow Farman to get better sight seen it was so close to gondola fitted!

What goes on Delangrange with Farman on plane as passenger notice following was published into L'Illustration (published 28th March 1908) :

About Delagrange and his Voisin which was identical to Farmans plane : "........meanwhile he proposes to some of his friends a place on board of his plane...one of the first invitated ones was farman and we could see a plane rolling over the field mounted by two people, but it seems that this augmentation of deadweight....alive,not foreseen by the constructor forces the plane to stay on the ground."

Than I found indeed into another French magazine published 1908 Delagrange seems to have made while rolling over the field a little bump upwards leaving with the wheels the ground for eventually some 50 m...!

Mabe some bult was on the ground and by accident the plane left the ground for such little distance?

My guess is that the French wished to keep the record of first flight with
1 passenger (sic&#33 in France and not to see it granted to had happend in Belgium!

You get the Ghent photo full size by email!

VBR

Jempie

[jempie]

Here the only photo I know from Delagrange with Farman as passenger on his plane!Framan standing upright, surely not confortable when it was intended to make a flight under such conditions!

VBR

Jempie

[AAC Cadet Leader]

jempie,

Much appreciation for the Farman and Voisin education. And really enjoy the photos and references to them. Keep going!

[jempie]

Hi Rod!

Henri Farman n° 2 ?
30 October 1908 he placed the altitude record of 25 m at Chalons-Sur Marne fro more...

The biplane (&#33 is still the Voisin with main wings outlook as on his tri-plane n°1 bis!

I noticed Reims August 1909 it was already the real "Farman n°III"!
Thus that plane must be from earlier than September 1909 as I had it in mind! Probably that is the moemnt he started his Flight School?

But when he exactly started constructing his own "Farman n° III" isn't clear to me at this moment! Probably first half of 1909 somewhere!

[AAC Cadet Leader]

What is the line or pole between the observation(?) tower and the aeroplane in the last photo?