Hayden-Sands USA

[MattyBoy]

Hi all,

I have seen this man mentioned as taking part in some of the earliest Flying Meetings in 1910.

Apparently he was an American, but apart from the fact that he obtained French pilot license no. 70 on 05-April-1910, I cannot find anything about him!

Any info greatfully received.
Matt.

[jempie]

Hi!

5th April 1910 ? License n° 70 ?


Sorry but I have by pure coincidence a Yearbook from the French Aé.C.F.

However last licenses taken up into this yearbook dates from 7th April 1910!
The numbering of last one on 7th April is reaching only n°46!
Graham white f.e. (n°30) dates from 1st march 1910....

So I guess the license n°70 must be from later than 7th April 1910 ?
But no idea who this man was!

However just searched on SANDS and find him mentioned as member:

1909 SANDS (Hayden) 33, Pine Street New-York and also the symbol from a "swallow" under it! Means having a plane! (Thus being aviator)

Maybe research must be done on familyname SANDS and first name Hayden!
Also his address is there he had at the time (1909-10) in New-York!

VBR

Jempie...

[MattyBoy]

Hello Jempie,

Nice to hear from you again.
The book I got the pilot list from is Memorial des pionniers de l'aviation 1909-1921.

It lists Raymonde de Laroche with license no.36 on 17-March-1910, and Grahame-White for example no.30 on 10-March-1910.
It seems this differs slightly with what I have seen in books & on the internet.
Claude Grahame-White - A Biography by Graham Wallace says his was awarded on 04th-January-1910.

Maybe the two dates are when the license was awarded FIRST by the Aero Club at a general meeting and ISSUED a few weeks/months later?

Thanks for that info on Hayden Sands, by the way.
Merry Christmas
Matt.

[jempie]

Hi!

The book I have is the official "Annuaire 1910" from the French Aéro-Club de France...
I have also in there mme Raymonde de Laroche n° 36 17 mars 1910!

In Belgium it was so that between the date of flightexamen succesful done and the date of official granting of license by the Aé.C.B. there was some time of difference! (In general some days to a week) and all licenses were granted (subscribed) on one and the same day!

on 17 mars 1910 the numbers 33 until 40 seerms to have been official licensed!
Graham White (n° 30 ) is the only one on date of 1er mars 1910!

But n° 31 Effimov and n° 32 Chavez are dated on 17th February!
Which is quite strange?

Maybe because Graham-White's papers came later in by mail?

So it could be that Sands'papers came later in, by mail from the USA, but he realised his flight test which was accepted by the Aé.C.F. earlier dated there?

Might be ????

VBR

Jempie

[Rod_Filan]

I have found two references to Hayden Sands (or Hayden-Sands). One is a passage from a french language pdf file on l'moteur Antoinette, the other, a short comment within a quite lengthy page on Hubert Latham.

It appears that Hayden Sands flew an Antoinette. The passage from http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/antoinette.pdf talks about the early Antoinette pilots. Here is a translation:

The Antoinette monoplane characterizes itself by its control system: side wheels act on the ailerons and the back planes: very fine to manipulate. After Latham, Wächter and Captain Burgeat, several pilots learn how to fly on this monoplane: Dutchman Kuller, the German Walter de Mumm, the American Hayden Sands, George Legagneux then mechanic at Antoinette, who passed his licence at Sommer, the only man that will beat the world altitude record three times, René Labouchère, Eugène Ruchonnet, and Commander George Clolus. Hubert Latham will have as student Marie Marvingt, the lone woman actually able to pilot the Antoinette.

From http://www.latham77.fsnet.co.uk/Hubert%20Latham.htm one mention of Hayden-Sands outperforming Latham on 9 Feb 1910. Interesting to both your posts.. here is it is stated Mme Delaroche succeeds in gaining her Aéro-Club de France licence on 10 Feb 1910. The following is what is offered as a day-to-day account of the air meet at Heliopolis:

01/02/1910 Heliopolis Airfield near Cairo. Aviation meeting attracted 9 french pilots including Latham who came with 3 different Antoinettes. Also possibly flew in the Far East late 1910-1911.

05/02/1910 Thursday last week, Latham had a mishap at Cairo, descending 50m. M/c badlydamaged but Latham unhurt. Antoinette school moved to Pau where Kulher is now tutor after Latham.

06/02/1910 Official opening of Heliopolis Aviation Week. Khedive + ministers + wife + harem attend. Offers his condolences to Latham on his misfortunes and inspects his 3 planes. Gobran's Voison crashes in flames. M. Rougier flies for crowds.

07/02/1910 Latham is unable to fly. Herr Grade (German) makes a notable flight in his monoplane.

08/02/1910 Only M. Balson makes a flight due to high winds but he only succeeds in crash

09/02/1910 Latham makes flight but is overshadowed by flight made by American Mr. Hayden-Sands. Mr. Michelin flew (tyre magnate) but crashed his plane.

09/02/1910 Summary account of the Cairo Aviation Meeting. Latham, Gobron presented to the Khedive. Also details of Heliopolis layout including separate enclosed stand for the Khedive's harem.

10/02/1910 Preparations are made for expected flight around the Pyramids by Latham. including natives with red flags acting as route markers. However no flight is made. Mme Delaroche wins the first female license of French Aero Club at Heliopolis.

11/02/1910 Report that Latham cannot get his machine to work.

12/02/1910 No flying at heliopolis due to high winds, problem which dogged the whole event.

13/02/1910 Latham breaks his plane at Heliopolis. His 4th accident at the event. Last day of flying. 7 other pilots make successful flights. M. Bolsan breaks speed record.

VBR
Rod

[joegertler]

I'm assuming they are referring to Sands in the 1st April issue of "l'Aerophile" when they note news of "Brevets de pilote aviateur."
"Sandz (sic) (Anglais).
l'agrement sera demands a leur Club national et le brevet de pilot-aviator leur sera delivre apres l'accomplissement de cette formalite."
So (if it IS the same person) his license may have been delayed to fulfill some additional requirement?
Sands (correct spelling) is listed in the 15 Feb issue of same magazine with,
"Sands sur Antoinette, vole 5 kilometresen 4 m. 22s., mais n'est pas compris dans le classement."
He is listed in some other accounts for the Heliopolis flight (1st March issue)as,
"Hors classement; Sands (Antoinette) 5 km, 4m., 22s." so I'm assuming these were unofficial as compare to the other endurance flights listed.
Hopes this helps. I just did some "skimming" through the 1910 volume, as he is not listed anywhere in the index for that year..He may be listed earlier as a student at the Antoinette school in Pau...

[Doc]

Good evening. On all of these French License dates, there seems to be some confusion. In some cases, the date on the license seems to be the date it was issued, and in other cases, it seems to be the date the exam was passed (this latter seems to have been the most common). There simply was no standardisation in this regard-- the exams were essentially run by the local schools and flying clubs, and then the results were sent to the FAI for issuance of the license. In the case of Delaroche, the 17 March date appears to be the date she passed her exam. The earlier date for Graham-White is probably the date he got his British Licence (sorry, I do not have that information available), but he did get that one BEFORE obtaining his French license # 30, so that would explain the discrepancy. Sands, I just don't know about-- my reference is the same one that Matt is using. We just have to be aware that the license numbers for the French licenses are not always in chronological order--- For example, April 1910 included licenses 42-47, 49-58, 70-72, 75, and 82. Interspersed were all May 1910. After July 1910, they became more chronological, except for the many for which the dates don't seem to be recorded (e.g. 291-311, 317-321, 323-329, 335-353, and and many of those issued in 1911. It's this confusion which often makes the research fun. Doc

Reference comment by Joegertler--- I think you will find that in these competitions, "sans classification" means that he did not place in the prize money, rather than being some kind of "unofficial" versus "official" competition. Doc

[joegertler]

Originally Posted by Doc

Reference comment by Joegertler--- I think you will find that in these competitions, "sans classification" means that he did not place in the prize money, rather than being some kind of "unofficial" versus "official" competition. Doc

Doc, I understand what you are saying. But I'm still leaning toward the Sands flight(s) at Helioplos meet being "unofficial" (not recognized for competition)-especially because they date almost two months before the date of his license #70...Had he been licensed at the time, I believe he would have qualified for some prize money for the duration of his flight. What do you think?

[jempie]

Hi!

I guess indeed he wasn't allow officially to participate seen he had no recognized license from the FAI!
But probably based on his flight prestations he finally got it!

could make sense indeed!

"Hors classement" means indeed he wasn't participating officially to this contest as the others, but as "outsider"...

VBR

Jempie