Morane-Saulnier Type A?

EricGoedkoop · 4 August 2005, 08:30 PM

I'm hoping somebody can help me with this one - I've seen this machine called the Morane-Saulnier Type A, but I'm curious as to why the rudder is marked "Morane" and not "MS" or "MoS" - not to mention the photo's caption.

Does anyone know what its actual designation is? And does anyone have or can anyone point me to drawings or more photos?

Thanks in advance,

Eric

Doc · 5 August 2005, 12:02 AM

This one is actually a Morane. Basically, the problem is that there was a corporate name change at a later date. Leon and Robert Morane started working in Aviation in late 1909, when they produced an aviation motor of about 50 HP. They later went into aircraft production, producing the Morane monoplane (which was actually designed by Leon Morane and Raymond Saulnier). This plane was made famous by Jules Vedrines by his activities in 1911 (Paris-Pau Race, Paris-Madrid Race, European Circuit, Circuit of England and Scotland, and the Coupe Pommery). In October 1911, a new corporation was formed, the Societe des Aeroplanes Morane-Saulnier, which continued to produce the same aircraft. In addition to producing aircraft, the company became well-known for pilot training, having four schools. Thus, this aircraft about which you ask was probably produced by the Morane brothers themselves, before the Morane-Saulnier company was founded in October 1911. This particular aircraft type as produced by Morane seems to have been referred to in the French literature simply as the "Monoplan Morane", so I don't know where the "Type A" nomenclature came from. There are lots of photos of Vedrines in various competitions in 1911 which show this aircraft, usually labelled "Morane" on the rudder. Hope this helps. Doc

EricGoedkoop · 5 August 2005, 06:28 AM

Thanks, Doc.

Vedrines was the link I missed - this machine is the Morane-Borel!

There is a drawing that shows the wing locations of four Morane-Saulnier monoplanes, one of which is the Type A - so I know there was a Type A. Anyone have any idea what it looked like?

Or was the designation perhaps applied retroactively to the Morane-Borel after the formation of the Morane-Saulnier company?

Doc · 7 August 2005, 01:29 AM

Eric, good morning. Interestingly, I can't find the term "Morane-Borel" in any of my period French References. All refer to this aircraft simply as the "Morane". I do find a confusing reference to it on AviaFrance, which calls it a "Morane-Saulnier Model A", for which production started in 1910 (before Morane-Saulnier existed as a company). I suspect that this was in fact a redesignation made after the creation of the new company in October 1911, though I can't determine exactly when its use started-- it certainly was not so-called when produced by Morane alone, as that seems to have been their only aircraft type produced, so would not have had series designations, I assume. Some comments and statistics (from AviaFrance) are:

Monoplace de sport. Environ 15 exemplaires construits. L'un d'eux permettra à Jules Védrines de gagner la course Paris-Madrid le 26 mai 1911.
(this translates as "sporting monoplace. About 15 examples constucted. One of them would enable Jules Vedrines to win the Race from Paris to Madrid on 26 May 1911".)

Monoplan aile médiane. Construction en bois entoilé. (Translation: Midwing monoplane. Made of cloth-covered wood.")

Envergure : 9.12 m (width 9.12 meters)
Longueur : 6.28 m (length 6.28 meters)

Equipage : 1 (crew: one)

Masse à vide : 280 kg (empty weight 280 kg)
Masse maximale: 430 kg (Gross weight 430 kg)

Vitesse maximale :110 km/h (Maximum speed: 66 Kilometers per hour)
Doc

Doc · 7 August 2005, 01:59 AM

Eric, more on this one. I can find no reference in any of my French references to this aircraft as a Morane-Borel. It was apparently produced first by the Morane Brothers themselves, then by a company formed between them and Borel, which seems to have been founded in 1910 and fell apart soon after due to design philosophy differences. Borel went on to create his own company and produced an aircraft in 1911. Moranes went on to form a company with Saulnier, M-S, but the dates are in question. Most sources say it was formed in October 1911, but AviaFrance says October 1910. I think it really was 1911 from most of my references. HOwever, I think it is clear that this aircraft is the same one referred to as the Morane, and the M-S Type A. I will keep looking to see if I can find out more about the Morane-Borel terminology. Doc

Doc · 7 August 2005, 02:09 AM

More add-ons, which just confuse the situation. Still can find no real French references to the aircraft as a Morane-Borel, though several early postcards do so call it. That term seems to have been used more in North America and the UK than in France. I still can't figure out the actual dates of the various companies, and have found one reference to a Morane-Borel-Saulnier company, without dates. This is a fascinating subject, which I am happy you brought up, as I now have something else to work on for a while. In any case, the Morane, the Morane-Borel, and the M-S Type A all seem to be the same aircraft. Some drawings are on the web at http://www.pioneeraeroplanes.com/3morbor.html. Doc

EricGoedkoop · 7 August 2005, 07:24 AM

Glad you're enjoying it, Doc!

Thanks for everything you've found so far. I too have seen reference to the Société anonyme des aéroplanes Morane-Borel-Saulnier; the Canada Aviation Musuem, which holds the only surviving example that I know of, names that company as the manufacturer of their machine.

Perhaps Saulnier joined the company before Borel left and all four were briefly in business together?

Then again, there's this from the CAM site:

Quote:

A Borel-Morane at the Exposition internationale de la locomotion aérienne at the Grand Palais, in Paris circa 1912

It's hard to make out, but the placard appears to say "Morane-Borel" . . . . . in 1912??

If you haven't come across this yet, here's another site with some information and quite a few pictures of the CAM example.

To further confuse the issue, the drawing you linked to - and I have one or two others of that machine - is not quite the same aeroplane as the one in question. Vendrines' machine and the CAM example are the same or at least very, very similar. There is a side view drawing of this type on the site linked above:

This matches the photos and differs from the drawing on the Pioneer Aeroplanes site in the size and shape of the rudder and the cowl/forward decking. These are relatively minor differences, but I can't recall seeing a photo that matches the large rudder / no forward deck drawings.

Are these two variations of the same design, small changes made during its brief production run? Or do they perhaps reflect the partnerships and parting-of-ways between the Moranes, Saulnier and Borel during this period of time?

Doc · 8 August 2005, 06:31 AM

Eric, nothing new in my references yet. Next time I get to the Brussels air museum, I will see what is in their files. One comment-- That Photo labelled M-B aircraft at Paris Salon about 1912 is conceivable, though it seems strange. The third Salon of Aerial Locomotion was from Dec 1911 to Jan 1912, so conceivably this could have been arranged for display before the formation of the M-S company in October 1911. Why they wouldn't have re-labelled it, I can't figure. Doc

EricGoedkoop · 8 August 2005, 06:38 AM

I can't really read what any of the signs in the photo say, although the placard in front looks like "Morane-Borel." It may very well say something different, but CAM captioned it "Borel-Morane" simply because that's how the example now in their collection was always referred to.

Barker · 8 August 2005, 08:00 AM

IIRC, Saulnier knew fabric, such, Morane knew design and craft.

Is that a foggy memory or on track?

The two combined to combine strengths?