Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #005

Varese2002 · 27 December 2008, 04:50 AM

Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #005

I searched some time to get a really marvellous one, and this is it. What, where, when .... and all other information you may have

Cheers

Kees

The score at the beginning of round #005 is:

2.00 Airarticles
1.00 joegertler
1.00 Varese2002

The (preliminary) rules:

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's pre-1914 ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
•There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
•The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

matte_kudasai · 27 December 2008, 05:56 AM

Lutskoy-1, this additional planes and three propellers is hard to forget

Shavrov's book says that it had two engines of 50-60 h.p. of Lutskoy's construction and on the first (and last) flight had speed 90 km/h, almost unbelieavable for 1909 year. Aircraft was assembled on Daimler works. First flight was made near Stuttgart, and in this flight one propeller was broken and aircraft crashed. So, photo made in Stuttgart or on the Daimler works (isn't it in Stuttgart?) Pilot was Габриэль Поулэн (Name taken from russian article, I don't know how it's on German), and he had just some bruises in that crash.

matte_kudasai · 27 December 2008, 05:59 AM

There is a big article about this aircraft, unfortunately on russian
ìÕÃËÏÊ-1
If someone can read russian...
Photo on that page is showing not this aircraft, but Lutskoy-2 without additional planes and with 2 coaxial propellers.

Varese2002 · 27 December 2008, 02:54 PM

I looked at the picture of the same machine in the book of Shavrov and realized that this is a different picture of this machine taken from the back. Pictures are not very sharp but be sure in the Soviet and now again Russian archives the original prints will have survived, so one day we may have sharp pictures of this machine.

The machine was the first aircraft design of Б.Г. Луцкий [transcribed as B.G. Lutskii, variously spelled in Germany, France, Austria etc.]. The machine is dated as 1909. The machine is described as a 'Винтокрылый аппарат', what can be translated as a 'Rotary-wing appratus'. (1) So primarily the idea of the machine was to start and land vertically.

According to Shavrov, 3 different types were built, which got the 'designations' 1, 2 and 3 by Shavrov. Do not think this is a contemporary designation, it is just to differentiate them.

(1) В. Михеев. Вертолеты дореволюционной России. 1992.

The point and the right to bring in #006 goes to Matte_kudasai [Матте_кудасаи]

The score at the end of round #005 is:

2.00 Airarticles
1.00 joegertler
1.00 Matte_kudasai
1.00 Varese2002

Varese2002 · 27 December 2008, 03:11 PM

I looked at the picture of the same machine in the book of Shavrov and realized that this is a different picture of this machine taken from the back. Pictures are not very sharp but be sure in the Soviet and now again Russian archives the original prints will have survived, so one day we may have sharp pictures of this machine.

The machine was the first aircraft design of Б.Г. Луцкий [transcribed as B.G. Lutskii, variously spelled in Germany, France, Austria etc.]. The machine is dated as 1909. The machine is described as a 'Винтокрылый аппарат', what can be translated as a 'Rotary-wing appratus'. (1) So primarily the idea of the machine was to start and land vertically.

According to Shavrov, 3 different types were built, which got the 'designations' 1, 2 and 3 by Shavrov. Do not think this is a contemporary designation, it is just to differentiate them.

(1) В. Михеев. Вертолеты дореволюционной России. 1992.

The point and the right to bring in #006 goes to Matte_kudasai [Матте_кудасаи]

The score at the end of round #005 is:

2.00 Airarticles
1.00 joegertler
1.00 Matte_kudasai
1.00 Varese2002

Varese2002 · 27 December 2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matte_kudasai

----- Aircraft was assembled on Daimler works. First flight was made near Stuttgart, and in this flight one propeller was broken and aircraft crashed. So, photo made in Stuttgart or on the Daimler works (isn't it in Stuttgart?) ---

This is the only mention of Lutskii in Flugsport 1910 No.6 (March 19). De Russian designer is here spelled as Lontzkoy

.

Close reading it, it mentions that in the flight of March 10th, a propeller blade was broken. How the reporter can think that the machine was somewhat on the lines ('ähnlich') of the Antoinette is beyond me

Cheers

Kees

NB.: I take some time off the Forum, too busy.

matte_kudasai · 27 December 2008, 11:29 PM

It is very unlikely that this aircraft was made for vertical take-off and landing, because it has not any "rotating wings" except that three propellers, one in the nose and two on the pylons in front of the wing.
And I can't find words "винтокрылый аппарат" in article about Lutskoy also...
Only mention about reversing of one of coaxial propeller on 2-nd machine for short landings.
Photo from my Shavrov's book seems exactly the same, but badly retouched photo, view from the front. Maybe your book is of another redaction...
Some data of this aircraft: Span, 18m., wing area 50 sq.m., weight 950 kg. It was designed to carry 5 passengers.
Lutskoy was ever more known as designer of engines for cars and ships, some time he was a member of directorate of Daimler-Marienfelde in Berlin.
When WW1 started, he was accused of spying for russians and was arrested. 4 years in prison for nothing... He died in 1920.
It possible that his aircraft was first 2-engined aircraft that flew.

Varese2002 · 27 December 2008, 11:36 PM

This is what I have from the book of Mixeev as quoted, I have not translated the whole text from the Russian, will take quite a lot of time.

Cheers

Kees

Varese2002 · 30 December 2008, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matte_kudasai

----
When WW1 started, he was accused of spying for russians and was arrested. 4 years in prison for nothing... ----

In Germany after the start of the war all non-Germans were looked at with mistrust and mostly set behind bars or an early form of concentration camp. This happened even to Germans who were married to non-Germans as in the famous case of Melli Beese who was wedded to Charles Boutard.

The situation in France and England would surely be about the same for German / Austro-hungarian citizens.

Cheers

Kees