Breguet pre 1914 ID challenge 013

[Varese2002]

I would like to coin this plane -

North German designed - Albatros

(Later) famous designer - Heinkel

TAUBE-like - one of the first Sportflieger Eindecker designed by Heinkel.

Along this premises it would an Albatros Eindecker Sportflieger designed by Ernst Heinkel. (it sure is not the very streamlined later Albatros (Heinkel designed) Renn Eindecker).

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

Sorry ,Varese ,you are not on the good path ...

The "bird " is a Taube ,but I think a pigeon would hate meeting my bird !

It comes from an harbour on the northern coast of Germany (btw there's no southern coast in Germany)

I hope you'll be happy in your investigations ; at least,an interesting and forgotten plane is now put in the light .

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by richard B

Sorry ,Varese ,you are not on the good path ...

The "bird " is a Taube ,but I think a pigeon would hate meeting my bird !

It comes from an harbour on the northern coast of Germany (btw there's no southern coast in Germany)

I hope you'll be happy in your investigations ; at least,an interesting and forgotten plane is now put in the light .

Given the new clues the machine must be from Hanseatische Flugzeugwerke HFC, Karl Caspar AG from Hamburg-Fuhlsbüttel.

Looking at the available machines it could be the Hansa-Taube minimally described as built with a 95 hp NAG engine, but also with a rotary engine.

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

Originally Posted by richard B

Sorry ,Varese ,you are not on the good path ...

The "bird " is a Taube ,but I think a pigeon would hate meeting my bird !

.

Well, your "pigeon" might not like to meet a "falke", such as one of those built by Steffen , which actually have the proper wing and strut conformation, but so far as I can tell do not fit your other clues. It might not like a "Stormbird" either, and one of Goedecker's machines had a rudder shape that matches, and I would have used that as a reason to guess that it was one of is designs, but I don't think the location fits. The tails on any Hansa's that I have seen pictures of don't fit, but there may be others. If Kees doesn't have it with his last proposal, I hope he (or someone) gets it soon, as I have run out of resources and ideas.

Actually, I will change my first "guess" to a Steffen, since Steffen was well known from his work with Siemens Schuckert. I don't know where he built his taubes, so that hint doesn't help me, but the wing seems to be a very good match. I have no good view of the tails on the pictures available to me.

[Varese2002]

Steffen Fliegerschule und Flugzeugfabrik was from Kiel, also a North German harbour town. Pictures of the vatious Steffen Falke types (Taubes) do not comply AFAIK with the Challenge mystery.

In the literature there is a mention of a Eindecker with 50 hp Argus engine, which was built for Heine in 1911, that crashed on its first flight.

A too meager reference to identify this machine. Will have to look further in the . Surely I do not have seen the book which references this challenge.

(1) Kasinger, F. 1914. Der Flugplatz Warnemünde - Rostock. Berlin-Charlottenburg: Luftfahrerdank.

(2) Entwicklung der Mecklenburgischen Flugplatz-Gesellschaft Görries-Schwerin mit beschränkter Haftung: 1912-1918. 1919. Schwerin: Bärensprung.

Thinking about it the first one could be a good candidate too, Warnemünde - Rostock.

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

BONJOUR A TOUS

SO FAR I KNOW ,Rbailey has got the point :
" Actually, I will change my first "guess" to a Steffen, since Steffen was well known from his work with Siemens Schuckert. I don't know where he built his taubes, so that hint doesn't help me, but the wing seems to be a very good match. I have no good view of the tails on the pictures available to me. "


The score at the end of end of #013 is:

3.50 Varese2002
3.20 RBailey
2.00 Airarticles
1.00 Cruze
1.00 joegertler
1.00 matte_kudasai
1.00 paolomiana
0.50 Richard B
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.30 aerohydro
__________________

But something disturb me :
VARESE writes :
" Pictures of the various Steffen Falke types (Taubes) do not comply AFAIK with the Challenge mystery. "

I know only 2 pictures of the FOUR Franz Steffen's airplanes listed by Lange :

-"my" pic ,showing "der einsitzige Steffen-Falke" (70hp Argus Falke I for Lange)

-the well known pic of the Falke Zweisitzer (100hp Argus Falke II for Lange)

Please ,Varese ,could you tell us more about those pictures ?

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by richard B

----
But something disturb me :
VARESE writes :
" Pictures of the various Steffen Falke types (Taubes) do not comply AFAIK with the Challenge mystery. "

I know only 2 pictures of the FOUR Franz Steffen's airplanes listed by Lange :

-"my" pic ,showing "der einsitzige Steffen-Falke" (70hp Argus Falke I for Lange)

-the well known pic of the Falke Zweisitzer (100hp Argus Falke II for Lange)

Please ,Varese ,could you tell us more about those pictures ?

I will see what I can do, but do you have the original source (title) in which you found this picture in the Library of the Deutsches Museum Berlin ?

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

SORRY I don't remember the source ,one of those booklet published in many town or Länder about the airfield.

May be, but I'am not sure at all ,one of the
" Blätter zur Geschichte der deutschen Luft und Raumfahrt "(SB 2579)

Cheers
Richard

[Rbailey]

The only pictures of the Falken that I have are in the DeVries book. I and II are shown from the front and the tails are not clear, but from what is shown they don't look as bird-like as the challenge machine, so I have to agree with Kees here. III is shown only in the cockpit area, and this does not match. The I and III have "STEFFEN" on the side of the fuselage. If this is indeed a Steffen (and I am not trying to talk myself out of the point), it may be the IV.

[richard B]

Very interesting

For Bruno Lange ,Steffen designed before the War :

1) Falke I ,Tauben Kopie ,single seat,1911,70hp Argus

2) Eindecker,for Heine ,1911,immediately destroyed,50hp Argus

3) Falke II ,two seats,1912,100hp Argus

4) Schwingenflieger for Werner ,unsuccessful

Our single seat can only be either No 1 or No 2 ,probably No 1 (Taube ) ,the No 2 being for Lange a Monoplane ,not a Taube .

More, my source says :

"DER EINSITZIGE STEFFEN-FALKE 1911"

Cheers

Richard