Breguet's pre 1914 aircraft ID challenge

[richard B]

Bonsoir à tous

I like this little biplane , good luck in your ID .

For the full mark ,please ,give the builder and either the designation or the designer name ;

the scoreboard after challenge #17:

3.50 Varese2002
3.20 RBailey
3.00 Airarticles
2.00 Cruze
1.50 richard B
1.00 Aquilius
1.00 joegertler
1.00 matte_kudasai
1.00 paolomiana
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.30 aerohydro


Quote:
The rules :

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's pre-1914 ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
•There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
•Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
•The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

[Varese2002]

In the haste you forgot the mention that this is already Challenge #018.

This machine is known as the Albatros-Pietschker-Renndoppeldecker from1912. Recognition points are the upper wing (the incision), and in total the rather flimsy ('ultra light') construction of the pilot seat, the engine etc.

A dangerous place for the pilot just sitting in a small chair right on the lower wing

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

Is this the Albatros biplane on which Pietschker made the 1st place at the "Herbstflugwoche" at Johannisthal 1911 (Sep. 24. - Okt. 1.) ?

I haven't seen a picture of his designs - thanks for that.

He set a new altitude record of 730 m with 2 passengers on the last day but I believe he must have used the Farman or Sommer copy then as I don't know where two passengers would find a place here.

But this plane dates from 1912?

Alfred Pietschker, the grandson of Werner v. Siemens, died on November 15th 1911 in a crash with a monoplane of own design while trying a sharp turn. He's been the fourth casualty on the airfield Johannisthal and it was told that he made suicide because Melli Beese wasn't interested in him, but that might be a big myth.


And Richard, I must agree, this is a nice looking bird.
It couldn't have been constructed more simple!


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Reading Aquilius piece I looked in the history of Alfred Pietscher and his machine, which was a monoplane (Eindecker) and not a biplane also built by Albatros. So reference books which describe the challenge machine (the biplane) as a Pietschker designed machine are probably not accurate.

Werner-Alfred Pietschke (1887-1911) got his German pilot licence No.116 in September 1911. He crashed to his death on November 15, 1911 in Johannisthal. The Albatros firm published a long statement about the crash of Pietschke in Flugsport 1911 No.25 (29 November) pp. 908-910, giving details of the causes of the crash. The article is quite specific that he was flying a monoplane (Eindecker), which was built by Albatros to the design of Pietschker. The machine had a special wing construction, where the front could be moved.

Pietschker used a 'normal' production Albatros biplane (see picture) for his flights. Passengers could obviously be carried.

The conclusion must be that the construction of Pietschker was a monoplane, which was wrecked on November 15, 1911. Remains the point where we are looking at in this Challenge

The crash of Pietschker


The Albatros biplane of Pietschker


A record flight from Pietschker on 13 November


Remains, what is the machine on the Challenge.

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

BONJOUR A TOUS

Varese ,you are right :
It's the "ALBATROS-PIETSCHKER SZ 1" DD

Thank you Aquilius for the info ,all is said ,and spare a (for me )difficult translation from German to English

You are right :the designer/flyer of this plane died at the 15th november 1911, flying ITS Gnôme Albatros ED with VERSTELLBAREN TRAGFLÄCHEN (variable wing???) designed by himself with some help from Hackenberger.

(sources ," Peter Supf ,das Buch der deutschen Fluggeschichte Bd I" and " Willi Hackenberger ,Die alten Adler " .A very recommendable book,130 foto of pre 1914 german planes ,women and men )

I tried to put the #018 ,but without success :Maybe Breguet could put the correction ?

the scoreboard after challenge #018

4.50 Varese2002
3.20 RBailey
3.00 Airarticles
2.00 Cruze
1.50 richard B
1.00 Aquilius
1.00 joegertler
1.00 matte_kudasai
1.00 paolomiana
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.30 aerohydro

[richard B]

Bonjour a nouveau

I had not read your last post ,Varese ,before writing mine .

I think that it is the ALBATROS SZ 1 , either flown by Pietscher or bought by Pietscher ,or designed by Pietscher .
It seems it was not very successfull ...

[richard B]

RE-BONJOUR A TOUS

I have got it :

ALBATROS SZ 1 sport biplane ,70hp Gnôme ,built FOR Alfred Pietscher in 1911.
span 10 m ;max speed 85 km/h .

Cheers

Richard

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by richard B

RE-BONJOUR A TOUS

I have got it :

ALBATROS SZ 1 sport biplane ,70hp Gnôme ,built FOR Alfred Pietscher in 1911.
span 10 m ;max speed 85 km/h .

Cheers

Richard

What is your source for the data of the SZ 1 ?

Lange (1986) gives

SZ 1 Doppeldecker, mit Gitterschwanz und Gnôme-Motor im Bug mit Zugpropeller. Baujahr 1911. Spannweite 10 m, Vmax 95 km/hr

No reference to Pietschke, maximum speed is 10 km /hr higher. By the way no picture in Lange (1986) is given of the Albatris SZ 1.

Cheers

Kees

[richard B]

Bonsoir

My sources are :
- Die Alten Adler by W. Hackenberber
- Das Buch der deutschen Fluggeschichte by P. Supf
- Das Buch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik by B.Lange

In the last named book is the mention "Albatros SZ 1 built for Pietscher"

I am very happy to see that in those Challenges ,we are discovering some unknown stuffs.

The story about Milli Beese and Alfred Pietscher is fascinating too : friends or more ? In 1911 a rumour said ,the Pietscher death was a suicide ,Milli being in love with the French Boudard ...
Waiting for the #19
Cheers
Richard

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by richard B

Bonsoir

My sources are :
- Die Alten Adler by W. Hackenberber
- Das Buch der deutschen Fluggeschichte by P. Supf
- Das Buch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik by B.Lange

In the last named book is the mention "Albatros SZ 1 built for Pietscher"

I am very happy to see that in those Challenges ,we are discovering some unknown stuffs.

The story about Milli Beese and Alfred Pietscher is fascinating too : friends or more ? In 1911 a rumour said ,the Pietscher death was a suicide ,Milli being in love with the French Boudard ...
Waiting for the #19
Cheers
Richard

I reread the pages on Pietschke in the book of Willi Hackenberger, but found them somewhat melodramatic, especially the passage with Melli Beese and the last flight of Pietschke. All of a sudden a film script came in my mind

Will look for an appropriate challenge #019 , but knowing the expertise available it may be found within an hour. We will see.

Cheers

Kees