Breguet's pre 1914 ID challenge #024

[Aquilius]

Welcome Ladies & Gentlemen

to Breguet's ID challenge of Flying machines before 1914!

To continue the show I'll offer edtion No. 24!


What do you have on this design?

...something more unconventional and maybe better known than the last one.
We will see.




The scorebaord after challenge #23 is:

4.70 Rbailey
4.50 Varese2002
3.20 richard B
3.00 Airarticles
2.20 Aquilius
2.00 Cruze
1.60 matte_kudasai
1.00 joegertler
1.00 paolomiana
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.30 aerohydro

The rules:

•The thread title must be "Bréguet's pre-1914 ID challenge #......"
•The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning and end of each thread so that we know where we are.
•The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
•There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
•Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
•The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
•Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
•If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
•Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
•To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
•The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
•If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
•The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

Will we have the first royal pilot soon?
Good luck to all of you!

Cheers

Aquilius

[matte_kudasai]

It closely match to the description of Bulot biplane of 1909 in the Opdyke's book:

a heavily staggered triplane with wings arched like a bird's, and a horizontal surface at the rear. A tall vertical surface stood in front of the tractor propeller; the fuselage was a high uncovered boxy structure set on 4 wheels. The pilot sat under the middle wing.

There is a photo in that book of the later variant

with only the first 2 of its triplane set of wings, a more conventional box fuselage which carried at least at one time the number 9 on the forward covered section. The rudder was moved to the rear, and the landing gear simplified to 2 wheels.

but it keeps the appearance (staggered arched wings and high boxy fuselage) of the plane that help to identify it.

[aerohydro]

Hi All,

I've found this link about the 1909 Aviation Meeting in Tournai, Belgium, and which contains the very same photo as that posted by Aquilius for this challenge.

So, it's the 1909 Bulot Triplane, as designed by Walther Bulot. Matte's hunch was correct! The heavily staggered wings are it's most significant feature.

Comparing Bulot's initial triplane design and the later biplane variant, it's clear that the biplane not only recycled two of the triplane's three wings, but that overall it was a simpler and more straight-forward design. Bulot deserves credit for that, as generally aircraft designers don't (to quote William Stout) "simplicate and add lightness".

Cheers,
Paul

[Aquilius]

Well, Matte,

after reading your post the third time, I will give it to you!

Your quotes tell about the "heavily staggered triplane" and the replacement of one of the wings.
I do like detective work and to combine facts - and I do believe you missed the last step only by accident. (I won't held typos against you.)

But as everybody can easily see, we do have here the Triplane of Walther Bulot, built in 1909.
The Belgian Bulot entered the machine at the "Semaine de l'Aviation" in Tournai (Sept. 5.-14. 1909), but pictures only show it on the ground.

For those who are interested, Jaques DeCeuninck wrote a book about that meeting: Tournai: LA SEMAINE DE L'AVIATION en 1909 (french only)


For giving the complete name of the designer, mentioning the Tournai meeting and finally naming it "triplane", I will also award a piece of cake to Paul.

So scores are:

0.7 matte_kudasai
0.3 aerohydro


that finally makes a scoreboard after #24:

4.70 Rbailey
4.50 Varese2002
3.20 richard B
3.00 Airarticles
2.30 matte_kudasai
2.20 Aquilius
2.00 Cruze
1.00 joegertler
1.00 paolomiana
0.60 aerohydro
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires



The next show will be offered by Matte.
Thanks for playing everyone.

Good Bye!

Aquilius

[matte_kudasai]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

Well, Matte,

after reading your post the third time, I will give it to you!

Your quotes tell about the "heavily staggered triplane" and the replacement of one of the wings.
I do like detective work and to combine facts - and I do believe you missed the last step only by accident. (I won't held typos against you.)

But as everybody can easily see, we do have here the Triplane of Walther Bulot, built in 1909.

Oh, I see my error
I just thoughtless retyped entry in Opdyke's book, looking at the biplane's photo...

I will post new challenge after some hours.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

-----
The Belgian Bulot entered the machine at the "Semaine de l'Aviation" in Tournai (Sept. 5.-14. 1909), but pictures only show it on the ground.

For those who are interested, Jaques DeCeuninck wrote a book about that meeting: Tournai: LA SEMAINE DE L'AVIATION en 1909 (french only)

-----

The Bulot triplane dit not leave the ground at Kortrijk (Flemish name) or Tournai (French name) to the ridicule of the public. Bulot was very angry about the remarks of the crowd. At best the machine did a show of shaving the grass.

Opdycke by the way attributes the picture of the later Bulot tandem biplane as representing the machine on the Paris Salon 1911. I checked the lists in Flight about the machines on display and could not find it. It is more likely that the picture was taken at the Brussel (Bruxelles) automobile / aero exhibition which was held in about the same fin du siècle environment.

The book about the metting in Courtrai should be interesting, I did not knew it existed. Thanks for that, it goes on the way to long short list of books to buy

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

Well, I'm happy with the 0.30 points awarded! Finally, I'm off the bottom of the points table and am no longer the holder of the wooden spoon!

Paul

[Wind In The Wires]

Beating pot with newly aquired wooden spoon.

[pfiquet]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

The Bulot triplane dit not leave the ground at Kortrijk (Flemish name) or Tournai (French name) to the ridicule of the public. Bulot was very angry about the remarks of the crowd. At best the machine did a show of shaving the grass.

Kees

Just for the sake of geographical and linguistic truth, Kortijk is NOT the Flemish name for Tournai.

Kortrijk is a Flemish city whose name was translated to "Courtrai" by her frenchspeaking neighbours from Lille and Roubaix.

Tournai is part of frenchspeaking Picardie and her name was translated to "Doornik" by her Flemish neigbours

Kortrijk is located 13 Nm Hdg 025 from Lille (Rijsel in flemish) while Tournai is
12 Nm but Hdg 095.

But the comment regarding the unablity to take off is 100% correct.

Congratulations for you interesting forum.

[Varese2002]

Hi Pfiquet, thanks for the information about Courtrai. When reading a few months ago about the Semaine de l'aviation 1909 á Courtrai, I wondered where the town was located in Belgium precisely. So I looked at Wikipedia here

and so I found out that the Flemish name was Kortrijk

I tested the name again on Google Earth, typing in Courtrai, België and you never know what came back => Kortrijk, België. To say the least I am a little confused.

Cheers

Kees