Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #041

[Varese2002]

Breguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #041

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The new challenge:



There is an extra 0.2 point if you come up with the full name of the designer and the full name of the firm who actually built it.

Beware, as far as I know nothing is on the internet for this one. So old books might do the trick

Cheers

Kees

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Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #041

7.30 Rbailey
6.40 Varese2002
5.30 matte_kudasai ===> 12 hours wait

4.20 Aquilius =====> immediate answer
4.20 richard B
4.00 Cruze
3.10 aerohydro
3.00 Airarticles
1.00 Doc
1.00 joegertler
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires
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Reference list held by Rod Filan: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge
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Breguet's Rules

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

[Aquilius]

Oh, something from the more sunny part of the globe...


Cheers

Aquilius

[Rbailey]

It would appear to be Indian, an area from which information on early indigenous aircraft is difficult to come by. Perhaps Mr. De Brunner got the engine he was waiting for. But whoever "designed" that monstrosity certainly didn't have the wellfare of the poor fellow swinging the propeller in mind.

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

It would appear to be Indian, an area from which information on early indigenous aircraft is difficult to come by. Perhaps Mr. De Brunner got the engine he was waiting for. But whoever "designed" that monstrosity certainly didn't have the wellfare of the poor fellow swinging the propeller in mind.

Mister Rbailey, you are somewhat unkind to early flying in India. The machine was designed by a superintending engineer who then already held 3 UK Patents and 1 Indian Patent.
This machine faced the flying unfriendly climate of India - that is scorching heat in the summer and mussons (torrential rains) - in the open for 2 years.

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

Mr. H.S.Wildeblood was quite interested in aviation and had some patents. He also made some significant contributions to architecture and was Superintending Engineer, Indian Public Works Department. He also expressed an intention to build an aeroplane, although his sketches that I have seen don't resemble the challenge machine. However, he had the background and access to the resources to enable him to build the machine. I have no other knowledge of identifying features.

However, I stand by my statement: from the point of view of the propeller swinger, it is a monstrosity. But if it had been standing outside for two years in India, it does deserve credit for quality of construction.

Did it ever actually fly?

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

---

However, I stand by my statement: from the point of view of the propeller swinger, it is a monstrosity. But if it had been standing outside for two years in India, it does deserve credit for quality of construction.

----

I still think you are using very strong words .

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

I've done some sleuthing, and am quite sure in my own mind that the triplane in question is indeed that of HS Wildeblood or, rather, Henry Seddon Wildeblood. Courtesy of Google Books, I have found this snippet of text from a 1958 trade journal:

The "Aeroplane" says that Mr. Wildeblood was probably the first person in India to design, build, and attempt to fly an aeroplane in the sub-continent. The machine, a triplane with forward stagger and a JAP motor, had special lateral balances in which Wildeblood set much store.

In the photo, one can just make out such lateral balances on the port and starboard side of the middle wing. Wildeblood took out three patents in 1911, all concerning improving the stability of aeroplanes. Delving a bit deeper into the internet, apparently Wildeblood wrote a long account of his work, including that with the triplane, in the August 1913 issue of "Aeronautics". Sadly, I don't have direct access to such publications and so for me the searching stops there.

Would be quite interested to learn more about this machine, and to see other photos, if they exist.

Cheers,
Paul

[Rbailey]

Good going Aerohydro. That is the description I could not find, The lateral extensions of Wildeblood's patent don't seem to be visible in the picture; perhaps the deteriorated in the two years of standing outside.

Incidentally, Wildeblood's son became much better known

[Varese2002]

Just as a preliminary, more later.

There is an article by H.S. Wildeblood in Flight June 24, 1911 pages 557-558 Experiments at JahRajputana. I liked the opening stance of his article

About a year ago I set myself, during the little leisure I was able to obtain, to study the theory of flight with the object of building a full-sized machine and, if possible, introducing improvements on existing types, which, however successful for spectacular displays, can scarcely be considered as safe as it is necessary for them to become before they become popular, as a means of locomotion or sport, with even the British sportsman of the polo-playing, pig-sticking type, to say nothing of the larger pleasure-loving section of our sporting race.

In Flight August 5, 1911 the following was published about the project of H.S. Wildeblood

Experiments in India.
Mr.. H. S. WILDEBLOOD, whose article on " Experiments in Rajputana," which appeared in our issue of June 24th, will be remembered, writes us that the full-sized machine has now been completed by the Upper India Motor Co., of Lucknow, and has been taken to the parade ground of the cantonment for its trials. It is 46 ft. span and fitted with a 35-h p. J. A.P. Mr. Wildeblocd says his latest trouble, besides the heat, which has been very trying, is a boring insect which has got into some of the bamboos, in spite of the preservative with which they were painted.

I will come up with a longer story and more pictures Evidently Wildeblood was attacking the problem of flight in very methodical and scientific way. Circumstances were difficult in India though. Wildeblood became an associate fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society on March 16, 1920.

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

The Wildeblood triplane reminds me a lot of another early flying machine, one that happens to have a connection to my homeland. Here are two photos of the 1910 Hawkins-Ogilvie Triplane, which was designed by the New Zealand aviation pioneer, Bertram Oglivie, but built by the Avro company in England and tested at Pitt Down in Hampshire and at Brooklands.




Photos are not good, but they're the best I could find on the net. The fact that this is a triplane with forward stagger, and with an undercarriage comprising mostly of struts, makes me wonder if HS Wildeblood took inspiration from the Ogilvie design.

To Rbailey: the lateral balances that I referred to seeing in the main photo look to me like flat-plate ailerons (again not unlike those on the Hawkins-Ogilvie Triplane). Look at the group of men on left of the picture, they seem to be holding struts that support one of the ailerons. The aileron on the other side can just be discerned. Of course, this is based on looking at one less-than-clear image. Perhaps other images will demolish that analysis!

Cheers,
Paul