Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft ID Challenge #053

[aerohydro]

Not particularly difficult I think, especially as it appears in a fairly well-known publication, but I have an ulterior motive for posting this as a Challenge.

I have always been intrigued by this particular design, but know so very little about it. Breguet's ID Challenge seems a good way to see if any 'new' information can come to light.

So, a point to whoever can identify this flying machine, but additional half points are on offer to those who can supply new photographs(*) or contemporary source material about it.

Paul

(*) - and they can't be photos of photographs. At the end of the Challenge, you'll find out why.
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Scoreboard at the start of Challenge #053

11.80 Rbailey
6.50 Varese2002
5.70 aerohydro
5.30 matte_kudasai
5.20 Aquilius
5.00 Cruze ===> 12 hours wait

4.90 Airarticles =====> immediate answer
4.20 richard B
1.00 Doc
1.00 Flamingo
1.00 joegertler
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires
__________________________________________________

Reference list held by Rod Filan: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge
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Breguet's Rules

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

[Varese2002]

It is the pusher-tractor aeroplane designed and built by Dane Hulbert.
Hulbert was an American who made in Lucerne a few flights on September 21, 1909.

As quoted in by Henry Serrano Villard in his book Contact

Lucerne, Switzerland, Sept. 21. - A new American aviator, Dane Hulbert , has made several successful aeroplane flights here lately. His machine differs from existing aeroplanes in that it travels lengthwise through the air and has two propellers, one in front and another behind.

Will search a bit around for this elusive Hulbert and his flying practices.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

I found another view of the machine of Dane Hulbert, this time spot on.

The text pasted on the picture (which is framed) is more in line with history, notwinstanding the claims of Serrano.

1909, verkehrter Doppeldecker mit 25 PS Anzani - Motor von Dr. Dane Hulbert aus Luzern. Dieses Flugzeug flog nie.

Sure this is the machine of Dane Hulbert from Luzern (Lucerne) and is called a wrong-way biplane (everything is turned 90 degrees if you understand what I mean). But it never flew

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

The picture of Dane Hulbert was sold in 2006 together with two other pictures of early Swiss aviation in a frame.



The whole sold lot can be seen here

There still remain some questions:

• What was a USA citizen like Dane Hulbert doing in Luzern (Swiss)

• Why had he the urge to build an aeroplane in this fashion, that is with the wings at 90 degrees rotated

Sure there are rests of information in the local Swiss press of the time, as it was rather special in 1909 to build an aeroplane.

Another thing is that other sources (Serrano Villard) give misinformation about the man and the machine. This is the blurb in Aerofiles, which is to say the least not very reassuring.

1910 = 1pOB with laterally-placed wings, long-shaft pusher-tractor propellers; unspecified motor. 1913 Jane's claimed: "... achieved several flights." Said to have been built in Switzerland, but flown in USA.

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

Well, congratulations to Kees for winning the Challenge. It is the 1910 Dane Hulbert flying machine, as seen in the 1913 edition of Jane's All the World's Aircraft.

Incidently, the 1913 Jane's does give a little bit more information about this person. In the Aerial "Who's Who" section at the rear of the book, there is the following:

"HURLBERT (Dr Dane), Vermont, Lucerne, Switzerland. USA Citizen. Experimenter in original types of aeroplanes, 1909-11.

Note the different spelling of the surname.

For this particular flying machine, I suspect that the tractor-pusher propeller arrangement is only there to increase the ambient airflow between the wings. I can't think of another reason for it. Certainly strange that there is no contra-rotatation happening with the props, especially on such a low Aspect Ratio machine.

At the Early Aviators' Dane Hulbert webpage, there is a press article about some successful flights being reported for him, quite possibly with the same machine as that shown in the photo. Though I am loathe to credit such a bizarre device with unexamined success - and I am aware of the lax journalistic standards a century ago - the fact that there were contemporary reports of flights must carry some credence. For information about the Dane Hulbert flying machine to have made it's way into Jane's, material on it must've appeared in an aviation publication, I'm suspecting that a French language journal, or perhaps a Swiss one, may yet provide more details.

Also at that website, you'll note an item from me, detailing the very same photograph that Kees has come across. As I already knew of this image, this is why I specifically stated that no extra points would be given for "photos of photographs".

Paul

[aerohydro]

Correct Answer to the Challenge - the 1910 Dane Hulbert Flying Machine.

This is not *technically* the close of this Challenge. If, as a result of this Challenge, additional information about this design comes in, then I reserve the right to attribute additional points, as per my opening post.

_________________________________________________

Scoreboard at the 'end' of Challenge #053

11.80 Rbailey
7.50 Varese2002
5.70 aerohydro
5.30 matte_kudasai
5.20 Aquilius
5.00 Cruze ===> 12 hours wait

4.90 Airarticles =====> immediate answer
4.20 richard B
1.00 Doc
1.00 Flamingo
1.00 joegertler
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires

__________________________________________________

Varese2002 takes control of the next Challenge
__________________________________________________

Reference list held by Rod Filan: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge
__________________________________________________

Breguet's Rules

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitor in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

[Varese2002]

Hi Paul, I had not realized that you had found this picture of the machine of Hulbert (Hurlbert ?) ready years ago . The nugget of information you are seeking about this machine is as I said in a contemporary Luzerner daily paper, for instance the Neue Luzerner Zeitung.

If one takes the data of Serrano at face value, mention of this machine must be around September 1909. As far as I could find at the moment no newspapers from Luzern have been scanned .......

When you search on the name of Dane Hurlbert you find in the Beadeker 1903 Switzerland & the Adjacent Portions of Italy, Savoy, & Tyrol‎

AMERICAN DENTISTS: Dr. Dane Hurlbert, Halden-Str. 3

Sure there is a Halden-Strasse in Luzern

If this is the correct man at least in 1903 he was already in Luzern as a dentist.

Look on it as very iffy, but it can open a few ways of research

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

Hello Kees

You're on the right track with the surname, though it seems most of us have assumed that the version that appeared in the main section of Janes was correct (as you do).

Have just found this new site, Aero Pioneer Times, where his name is given as both Dane Hurlbert and Dane Hurlbut!

Cheers,
Paul

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by aerohydro

Hello Kees

You're on the right track with the surname, though it seems most of us have assumed that the version that appeared in the main section of Janes was correct (as you do).

Have just found this new site, Aero Pioneer Times, where his name is given as both Dane Hurlbert and Dane Hurlbut!

Cheers,
Paul

Hi Paul, the mystery is in the name, undoubtedly it can be proved that the name of the inventor in Lucerne (Suisse) was Dane Hurlburt.

Dane Hurlburt acquired two patents in Suisse (French language) in 1909 and 1911. The 1909 patents shows a lot of the construction that is on the two known pictures we have seen here, there are abundant drawings. The 1911 patent (CH 57687 of September 21, 1911 - Aéroplane monoplan) shows a 'normal' monoplane. I have not had the time yet to read the patents about their particular aspects.

I have included the 1909 patent here as attachment.

Maybe with the correct name - Dane Hurlburt - there is more to find, but certainly his name was prone to very much misspelling.

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

Wow Kees, this is an excellent development! The patent's a major breakthrough, as is finally learning the Doctor's real name. Congratulations on the excellent detective work!

I've checked the illustrations in the brevet against the two known photographs of the Dane Hurlburt flying machine and they compare fairly well. The only difference of significance that I can see are that the two curved side wings, top-and-bottom, shown on the patent, are missing from the photos.

There's no plan view supplied with the patent, but Figure 6 shows a portion of the wing, and seemingly some system for changing the skin tension of the wing covering.

Searching with Doctor's name now proffers up a few items from the Internet. According to esp@cenet patent website, he took out some seven patents, six dealing either with aeroplanes or parachutes.

There is a brief article from the New York Times for 24 September 1909.

Here is a snippet from Google Books from the Vermont Medical Monthly that supplies some biographical details. Not much, but it's a lead!

Also, though the 1903 Baedeker had his name wrong, the 1905 edition got it right.

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As per my original posting for this thread, you get a well-deserved extra half point, which takes your score up to:

8.00 Varese2002

It seems too small an award for what you've uncovered! I'll let the latest poster for the ID Challenge know that your score needs to be revised.

************

I'll finish off as I started, which is to say: Wow!

Paul