Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID challenge #064

[Rod_Filan]

Presented for your consideration:



The full name of the manufacturer and the full model designation are required to gain one full point. I myself, am not certain of the model designation, so in this case, some convincing explanation will be necessary.
________________________________________

The scoreboard at the start of Challenge #064:

12.20 Rbailey
9.00 Varese2002
6.20 Aquilius
6.00 Cruze
5.70 aerohydro
5.30 matte_kudasai
5.20 richard B ===> have to wait 12 hours

4.90 Airarticles =====> may start immediately
2.00 joegertler
2.00 Flamingo
1.00 Doc
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.60 Froggy
1.50 Rod_Filan
0.40 Wind In The Wires



The rules are :
1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

____________________________________________
Previous challenges are found here: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

Cheers
Rod

[Airarticles]

Hello

In this challenge it must be the strange design of Frenchman Jourdan tested during 1910-1912 at Juvisy. The challenge photograph surely shows the first version because of
-the simple full rounded cone barrel (or cylinder, today we can think it was some lind of a nozzle as have jet planes) in the front, which is main recognizable feature,
- then triangle elevator at the rear
- the wings have ailerons
According to Opdyke`s book on early French planes I think it is Jourdan No.1 from 1910-1911.

Cheers
Milan

[Rod_Filan]

Milan, that it's built by Jourdan in 1910; that is correct. You've earned at least a partial point that will now put you into the "12 hour wait" department. Congratulations.

However, Jourdan's Christian name is still in question, and the designation is not the "name" that I have for this flying(?)machine. The designation No.1 may be in fact correct--yet, for the moment, I'll wait for someone to collaborate your Opdykeian assumption.

I should point out that in another photo of what appears to be the same aircraft, there are slight differences and a tractor propeller is visible. On this machine the prop is either not fitted at the time this photo was taken, or it's not intended to be mounted at the front of the barrel in the first place. And knowing the class level of the aerophiles that haunt these nether regions of the forum; what that all means, I expect will surely be determined by the end of this challenge.
-
Cheers

[Varese2002]

This is one of the brilliant designs of Etienne Jourdan. All his machines were characterized by a big central tube ('conical barrel'). The engine with a tractor propeller was mounted before (or at first in) the barrel, to push air in the barrel. The idea might be to push the air through the barrel and fly.

I have found no French patents for this idea by Jourdan, but there may exist one.

Looking at the photographic evidence I come to the conclusion that three different machines were designed by Jourdan, all at Juvisy (France). Machines had no model registration to differentiate them, so I call the Machine-1, -2 and -3.

Machine-1 (Spring 1910)
The original machine giving the clearest view of the ideas of Jourdan. A very big barrel with the engine inside and propeller just as long as the diameter of the barrel. Shoulder wings with wing warping. Machine did not fly after months of testing during 1910.

Machine-2 (Spring 1911)
A complete redesign, much smaller barrel, with the propeller before the barrel. Pilot could sit comfortably under the barrel seated within the massive undercarriage.

This machine was (also) continually modified. At first it was fitted with wing warping, but after modification it was fitted with ailerons.

Machine was reported in the German press [Flugsport February 1911] and in the French press [L'Aérophile].

The machine was extensicely tested, but no flight occurred.

Machine-3 (Spring 1912)
Again a complete redesign. The full circle barrel was here replaced by a big half-barrel with a different undercarriage. The propeller was quite before the half barrel. Again wng warping.

The machine was again reported in the press [Flugsport March 1912] and It Flew. There is at least one picture of it (probably more) of the machine in flight! Opdycke gives a picture of the machine after a crash.

Success for Jourdan! Unfortinately he died on July 15, 1912, leaving almost no trace of his ideas.

In later years (1930's) Caproni tried the same idea with the Stiba, which actually flew quite good.

What is on the interesting picture?

On the picture is the second machine of Jourdan in the version with wing warping. The propeller and the engine are not fitted. As the machine was continuously modified there can be seen a sort of side board at the undercarriage, maybe to shield the pilot from the wind.

I don't want to belittle Opdycke, but his piece on Jourdan could need some augmentation and be more factual. Opdycke is the only one who comes up with the name Helicoplane , I could not find facts / references in the contemporary press.

There could find no mention who actually built this machine but as everything occurred in Juvisy it could have been a firm in the neighbourhood.

I could find only one reference to Jourdan named fully as Etienne Jourdan.

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

M. Jourdan's plane is - I think - called the l’Hélicoplane.

I'm basing this on the photo caption on a leaflet for the Port-Aviation Centenary celebrations happening later this month. More detail will probably come to light once the Centenary book has been published.

Also it's referred to as the Helicoplane Jourdan at Precurseursaviation.com website, which also contains a full description of the machine.

There were two subsequent versions, one that dates from August 1911 and which featured a wider diameter duct. The final version is from 1912 and eschews the bottom half of the duct. FLIGHT article showing all three versions

Cheers,
Paul

[aerohydro]

And there, in the background, is the l'Helicoplane.

Curses to Kees for getting in one minute before me, and with far more detail!!

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by aerohydro

-----
I'm basing this on the photo caption on a leaflet for the Port-Aviation Centenary celebrations happening later this month. More detail will probably come to light once the Centenary book has been published.
-----

Thanks for hinting at this coming book, looks very interesting and it is at least faily priced. If the picture in the leaflet is a sample of the rest, it might be very good.

Cheers

Kees

[aerohydro]

I correct myself. There are at least four different versions. Sequence is - I think - slightly different to how Kees has it.

First version is as per the photo at the start of this thread.



Second version as per below, and dates from January 1911.



Third version, below, has a larger diameter cylinder, machine dates from August 1911.



Fourth version, which probably debuted in 1912, was a modification of the third, and notable mainly for the removal of the bottom half of the cylinder.

[Varese2002]

Well, intresting, but I stay with my order, which is more corroborated with hard contemporary facts As extra, the name Hélicoplane (also used by other designers like Decaze, Cornu etc.) is not founded in any contemporary evidence I know of.

Hélicoplane denoted that a machine could leave the ground [b]vertically/b], which was not the intention of Jourdan. So I believe the name Hélicoplane only when there is contemporary evidence.

Cheers

Kees

[Varese2002]

The contemporary use of the word hélicoplane (semi-hélicoptère).



Cheers

Kees