Breguet's pre-1914 ID challenge #073

[Aquilius]

Welcome to Breguet’s pre-1914 ID challenge #073!

For those who are not yet tired of searching new old flying machines,
here is another bird:



Who can tell me what it is, who was responsible for and maybe you have a little bit of it’s history?


The scoreboard after challenge #72 – Merćep-Rusjan Military-Monoplane – is:

14.20 Rbailey
10.90 Varese2002
7.20 Aquilius
6.70 richard B
6.00 Cruze
5.70 aerohydro
5.50 Airarticles
5.30 matte_kudasai===> have to wait 12 hours

3.00 Flamingo =====> may start immediately
2.00 joegertler
1.50 Rod_Filan
1.00 Doc
1.00 Lodzermensch
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.60 Froggy
0.40 Wind In The Wires


Previous challenges are to find here: Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules:

1.The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......"
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....)
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion)
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet

Good luck!


Aquilius

[Flamingo]

Hi Aquilius

the shape of the cowling and the position of the radiator could be from a
Zeigler Taube.

[Flamingo]

Got my first info from DeVries, and it had the "Kreigsmarine and Griefengeschwader" syndrome!!

The correct name of the pioneer is Albert Ziegler, a way more common name.

He was a Siebenbürger Sachse from Zeiden. His monoplane was also described as "Pfeildoppeldecker" and was successfully flown in 1913.

More info in German and picture Ein grosser Flugpionier aus Zeiden

[Aquilius]

Quick response!

But I must advise you to re-read your posts carefully - and maybe the source you quoted, before I can judge something!



Cheers

Aquilius

[Flamingo]

Pfeildoppeldecker has been written by me more often than "Pfeileindecker"!!

[Aquilius]

Originally Posted by Flamingo

Pfeildoppeldecker has been written by me more often than "Pfeileindecker"!!

That's it !

The type is also mentioned as "Ziegler Pfeilflugzeug".

I can't accept "Ziegler Taube" only.
This term was used for another aircraft he wanted to built later with the 120 hp Austro-Daimler engine that for he bought the "Etrich Versuchsapparat II", a prototype developed by Stanko Bloudek from the Etrich NM-Typ (Normal-Militär-Typ) in Liebau. Eventually it was allotted to this Etrich Taube as well.


Of course full score and next challenge to you!


The scoreboard after challenge #073 - Ziegler Pfeil-Eindecker - is:

14.20 Rbailey
10.90 Varese2002
7.20 Aquilius
6.70 richard B
6.00 Cruze
5.70 aerohydro
5.50 Airarticles
5.30 matte_kudasai===> have to wait 12 hours

4.00 Flamingo =====> may start immediately
2.00 joegertler
1.50 Rod_Filan
1.00 Doc
1.00 Lodzermensch
1.00 paolomiana
1.00 YavorD
0.60 Froggy
0.40 Wind In The Wires


Cheers

Aquilius

[Aquilius]

For those who want to read more about Ziegler, here is another more detailed article, also written by Ewald Metter (in german):

http://www.zeiden.de/download/zeidner_gruss/zg32_33.pdf

to give a little summary:

Albert Ziegler, born in Zeiden (today Codlea) next to Kronstadt (Braşov), Transsilvania, worked as an engineer in the motor and aviation business in Switzerland, France and England before he came to Germany in 1911. He was asked to help Prinz Sigismund von Preußen to built a glider, was employed by Rumpler, Wright and Garuda.

In 1912 he got an used 50 hp engine (Argus, I guess) and a shed at the Bornstedter Feld next to Potsdam from the Siemens-Schuckert company.
I believe this happened cause Siemens quit temporarily it's aviation section after Alfred Pietschker crashed to death.

Ziegler needed at least on year to realise his "Pfeil-Eindecker" and flew it in summer 1913. It is told is flew very stable and was well steerable.

In July or August 1913 he bought an Etrich Eindecker for which his hometown founded the money and from Oktober on he presented it throughout Transsilvania until August 1914. The aircraft was then confiscated by the k.u.k. Luftfahrttruppe and Ziegler who wanted to collect money to built a new aircraft with the powerful 120 hp engine never could realise his project.
He became testpilot for the Lloyd Aircraft factory later and died in 1946 in Halle an der Saale, Germany.


Cheers

Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

------

In 1912 he got an used 50 hp engine (Argus, I guess) and a shed at the Bornstedter Feld next to Potsdam from the Siemens-Schuckert company.
I believe this happened cause Siemens quit temporarily it's aviation section after Alfred Pietschker crashed to death.

-----

Interesting information on the little known Albert Ziegler, thanks for the articles of Mr. Metter.

I cannot see the logic behind your hypothesis that Ziegler got a shed (Schuppen) and a 50 hp engine, because Siemens-Schuckert quit temporarily its activities. SSW had no relation with Pietschker or with his unique own monoplane design (that was built by Albatros, who were doubtfull about the design before and after the deathly crash, as quoted in there special letter published in Flugsport).

Reading the text of Mr. Metter it says that Ziegler worked a full year with Garuda. He switched then to SSW on the Bornestedter Felde where SSW had an aircraft hangar ('Halle'). After that comes the text that he got a shed (Schuppen) and the 50 hp engine.

There is no mention in the text that SSW quit aviation activities, neither that Albert Ziegler was fired or left the SSW company. In which way he got the (relatively) small donation of an engine (for study - Studienzwecke) and a shed, given the word a not very luxurous surrounding, to say the least.

In short, we do not know, given the data / information why he got a present / donation from SSW.

Cheers

Kees


Quotes from the Metter article of 1970:

Bei der Firma ,,Garuda" blieb Ziegler ein volles Jahr und
wechselte dann zu den Siemens-Schuckert-Werken über. die
bei Potsdam. auf dem Bornestedter Felde ebenfalls eine Halle
für Flugzeuge errichtet hatten. Damals steuerte er zum ersten Mal eine Maschine, die außer dem Piloten einen Fluggast tragen könnte.

Im April 1912 überließ ihm die Firma "Siemens-Schuckert" einen Schuppen mit Büroräumen und dem nötigen Werkzeug sowie einen 50 PS-Motor zu Studienzwecken

[Aquilius]

Originally Posted by Varese2002

There is no mention in the text that SSW quit aviation activities, neither that Albert Ziegler was fired or left the SSW company. In which way he got the (relatively) small donation of an engine (for study - Studienzwecke) and a shed, given the word a not very luxurous surrounding, to say the least.

---

Kees

Kees, I had to search a while where from I made my assumption.

You are right, this context is nowhere mentioned in connection with Albert Ziegler.
But I found the entry of the SSW in the Günter Schmitt book “Als die Oldtimer flogen – Die Gschichte des Flugplatz Johannisthal”:

Siemens-Schuckert-Werke (SSW), Abteilung Flugzeugbau

Die Siemens-Schuckert-Werke befleißigten sich in der Fertigung für die Luftfahrt seit dem Jahre 1907, als sie den Bau des halbstarren Luftschiffes nach Entwürfen begangen, die Major Groß, Kommandeur der Preußischen Luftschifferbataillons, vorgelegt hatte.
Der Flugzeugbau begann im Jahre 1909 in einer Werkstatt auf dem Bornstedter Feld bei Potsdam. Die Entwicklung von Flugzeugen wurde abgebrochen, als am 15. November 1911 in Johannisthal Alfred Pietschker – ein Enkel des Großindustriellen Werner von Siemens – tödlich abstürzte. Nach Kriegsausbruch wurde jedoch der Flugzeugbau energisch vorangetrieben und zwar vor allem der Bau von R-Flugzeugen. [...]

The 1909 SSW-Bourcart biplane was just offered by Joachim in challenge #074 and I think if they quit the aircraft-business after Pitschker, the grandson of Werner von Siemens, died in 1911, they gave the sched near Potsdam to Ziegler ‘cause they had no further use for it.
Metter writes that Siemens left the hangar in April 1912, when Ziegler already might have been part of SSW.


Oh, and before I forget, Ziegler is also mentioned in the "Igo Etrich" book
by Hanuš Salz.
Only there is not much apart from that he built a monoplane before he bought the Etrich Taube that got the serial "00.03" with the k.u.k. Luftfahrttruppe. And very little on his flights in Transsilvania.



Cheers

Aquilius

[richard B]

The Ziegler Pfeil ED later (in 1914 ) in the "Luftschiffhalle Berlin-Biesdorf"
-Lange's Buch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik-





Is the challenge ED the only aeroplane built or modified by Ziegler?
I have read somewhere that there was a Ziegler "Taube" too, NOT the Pfeil ED.