Breguet's pre-1914 ID challenge #074

YavorD · 21 May 2009, 04:18 AM

Source: Joachim Kruth, Siemens, Bremen, 2001 (presentation)

Varese2002 · 21 May 2009, 07:09 AM

Great pictures Yavor, thanks. The Siemens firm was surely in 1910 already big enough to have a photographic department to communicate important happenings in the firm. The archive of Siemens seems fully intact despite the ravages of war and contains a lot of original prints or even the original glass plate negatives.

Cheers

Kees

Varese2002 · 21 May 2009, 08:30 AM

These are the pictures published in C&C USA.

The original version, likely before the first flight. It was damaged in the landing of that first flight.

The modified second version of the Siemens Bourcart Biplane 1910. It first flew on March 9, 1910 (Bourcart as pilot including a passenger). After a flight on March 11, 1910 with three passengers, it was caught by a side wind and crashed. Damaged beyond repair.

Cheers

Kees

Varese2002 · 22 May 2009, 01:52 AM

There appear to be some conflicting history around the SSW Pusher Biplane 1909 (my identification

.

Looking at the source of the pictures send in by Yavor [Flugzeugbau bei Siemens. 1909 bis 1919. Joachim Kruth,. Siemens A&D] I found the following .................

picture taken on December 20, 1909. In the pilot seat is H. Burghardt. On that day no attempt was made for a flight

picture taken on December 31, 1909. It shows the small damage ('Leichter Bruch') after the first flight

picture taken on February 9, 1910 at the Bornstedter Feld (near Berlin) - this is the picture from the challenge

I presume the data given by Joachim Kruth come from the SSW Archives, where the originals of these company pictures will be held.

The early history of this machine brings the following questions:

all sources give the designer of the SSW Pusher Biplane 1909 as Bourcart while Burghardt is credited as being in the pilot seat in the first picture of December 20, 1909.

the SSW Pusher Biplane 1909 in its original version first flew on December 31, 1909, being lightly damaged on landing. Looking at the picture the left side of the undercarriage 'folded'. Damage to the wing tips.

the Challenge picture shows the 'repaired', probably somewhat modified version of the SSW Pusher Biplane 1909.

This repaired version first flew on March 9, 1910 (again with Bourcart / Burghardt as the pilot) successfully. On a 3 passenger flight on March 11, 1910 the machine crashed, being irreparable.

Questions remain:

- Bourcart versus Burghardt

- The matter of the repair / modification after the light damage of December 31, 1909

Cheers

Kees

YavorD · 22 May 2009, 04:34 AM

Hi Kees!
Concerning Bourcart versus Burghardt controversy, the Bourcart name is confirmed by couple of contemporary sources (e.g. patent found by you, as well as ZFM article, with photo, see plate VI). Burghardt is mentioned only by Joachim Kruth, as much as i know.
Regards,
Yavor

Flamingo · 22 May 2009, 10:07 AM

The differences between the two variants are straight and "curved" wings as well as forward and rear controls.

In C&C and this thread the straight wing is called the second variant but I am quite sure the crash picture shows this machine and the crash does not seem to be too serious to be repairable.

So maybe the curved wing was the second variant??

berman · 22 May 2009, 10:35 AM

I agree with Flamingo. The photo captions in C&C are mixed up. Maybe someone has further info and a possible drawing from Flugsport or other early aero publication.

YavorD · 22 May 2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berman

... Maybe someone has further info and a possible drawing from Flugsport or other early aero publication.

No more information inside Flugsport and ZFM (except a small picture) as much as I was able to comprehend.
Yavor

Varese2002 · 22 May 2009, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berman

I agree with Flamingo. The photo captions in C&C are mixed up. Maybe someone has further info and a possible drawing from Flugsport or other early aero publication.

Sure, the captions of the pictures are mixed up. There is only one way out tht is consulting the Siemens archive. I will send them a mail, with reference to this Challenge to obtain the information they have about the first machine of SSW.

I will also ask them about the name of the designer - Bourcart or Burghardt - and maybe more about him. If any paperwork survives, it must be able to pinpoint things exactly.

Cheers

Kees