Breguet's Pre-1914 Chalenge #127

[Varese2002]

Breguet's Pre-1914 Challenge #127

To keep the eyes and brains in top-condition I have selected this one. Please give all you know about it.

Cheers

Kees



The scoreboard at the start of Challenge #127:

22.40 Rbailey
18.20 Varese2002
13.80 aerohydro
12.20 Aquilius
8.00 richard B
7.30 matte_kudasai
6.90 Rod_Filan
6.00 Cruze
6.00 Flamingo
6.00 YavorD
5.50 Airarticles
**************
(those above this section must wait 12 hours before answering,
those below - and everyone else - may answer immediately)
**************
3.30 berman
3.00 Lodzermensch
3.00 joegertler
2.00 sobrien
2.00 Doc
1.10 Froggy
1.00 paolomiana
0.40 Wind In The Wires
0.20 Willi Von Klugermann

Breguet's Pre-1914 Aircraft Challenge

The rules of engagement:

1. The thread title must be "Bréguet's Pre-1914 ID Challenge #......".
2. The score board, link and rules must be copied to the beginning of each thread, so that we know where we are. The score board and the correct answer to the challenge must also be placed at end of each thread.
3. The flying object must have been dreamt up before 1914 (no limit backwards in time ....).
4. There are no limits to the flying object for the pre-1914 series. There is no ruling that it must be flown, or completely built.
5. Machines which exist only as 'paper', that is absolutely no material has been cut to construct it, are excluded from this ID Challenge.
6. The picture / drawing must show as much of the flying object as possible, but views showing the machine 'incomplete' are possible (with discretion).
7. Challenges which depict a machine already earlier presented are disqualified.
8. If there is any doubt as to the eligibility of a flying object for the challenge details should be PM'd to Breguet BEFORE the object is submitted.
9. Once someone has got 5 correct answers under their belt they belong to the ROYALTY. Once they belong to the ROYALTY they must wait 12hrs after the posting of the new challenge before they can post an answer.
10. To be eligible for correct ID an answer must include at least one characteristic of the aircraft that helped in its identification.
11. The first person to ID the challenge correctly gets to post the next challenge. If this can not be done for any reason Breguet himself will post the next challenge.
12. If a ROYALTY gives the correct answer too early, the challenge is over, he gets no point but has to post the next one. In lieu of the fact that the "novices" have in effect been "cheated" of their "exclusive" time that next post should be a relatively easy one. Anyone repeating the correct answer at the right time gets neither a point nor the right to post the next challenge.
13. The final arbitrator in relation to questions about the rules will be Breguet.

[Rbailey]

Just to get something going I will comment that a Koechlin monoplane of 1909 had trailing ailerons and a similar tail wheel. I don't see many other similarities to any other Koechlins that I have seen however.

[Aquilius]

With this rather sloppy mounted wings it looks not like a creation of a prefessional aircraft builder. Maybe it's the first shot of one of those countless Blériot imitators. If it would have flown high it could also be the last...
The engine seems to be the widely used Anzani. So this is not a hint, but we are probably in the flat part of Europe.


Just I'm completely baffled by these hanging tail-rudders. In wich way were they supposed to work?




Aquilius

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Aquilius

---- but we are probably in the flat part of Europe ----

When cycling around in the country of origin of this designer you will realize that a part of it is not very flat. The designer was not an amateur - I think - because I traced a few studious works of him published in French in 1909 and one of them translated by the NASM (probably recently) translated in English.

By the way I do not tqualify this machine as a Blériot imitation, the resemblance ends with that the Challenge machine is also a tractor monoplane.

Engine was a 40 hp Anzani driving a 2,15 meter Chavière propeller.

Cheers

Kees

[Rbailey]

Would he be Swiss by any chance?

[Varese2002]

Originally Posted by Rbailey

Would he be Swiss by any chance?

Not Suisse, in my opinion that is all real mountains. This country has at least a flat part and a rather hilly part. To make it clear, only professionals can cycle in Switzerland but amateurs (like me) can cycle in the country of this Chalkenge machine.

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

Is it by any chance a monoplane of Walther Bulot which he built in 1911?


His biplane "La Mouette" shown at an exhibition before (the Paris Aerosalon in 1910 maybe?) had some similarities - an open boxed fuselage, undercarriage including tail-wheel and wings that look not that far away. He probably added ailerons in 1911.

And I have the impression it is photographed here after a landing or maybe when it suffered from strong winds. A few of the wires seem to be loose and though the wing frames are symetric it looks little damaged.


Just these are all assumptions, but what about Belgium if the Ardennes are the "hilly part"?


Cheers

Aquilius

[Rod_Filan]

The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain and I can't help but think your cheeky delectation to the Challenge's location and inference to cycling is to steer us away from what so obviously appears to be French circa 1907-08.
-
Cheers

[Varese2002]

Aquilius

Belgium is right, but no Walther Bulot machine here. I have no information if this picture was made after a landing, worse I do not even know at the moment if the machine flew

Rod

Not France but Belgium [France is not for amateur cyclers like me ). I think we are looking in later then 1907-1908. Probably later like 1910-1911.

Cheers

Kees

[Aquilius]

Okay, another try:


Herb Sieger tells there has been an "Aviator Monoplane" built in 1910.
Span: 32'10" Length: 35'5" Weight gross: 551 lbs

The "Aviator Company" was foundet together with the Bollenkens Brothers by Baron Pierre de Caters of La Hulpe, the first begian aviator, who received the first belgian pilot brevet. (surely in an area where cycling is not that task )
He bought and flew Voisin biplanes before and also Blériots, I think.

Wiki tells:

he [...] founded the Aviator company in order to produce the Aviatik biplanes under a Farman licence.

Do I get something wrong here?
Aviatik built Farmans with licence - and if Farman sold a licence to de Caters for their copies, built by whom ever, than it remains a Farman machine. Though de Caters used Argus engines later before the war, maybe also with these biplanes.

With two of this Aviator-Aviatik-Farman biplanes (and a Blériot) he went to India and presented them there. His Aviator Company was dissolved when he came back to europe, possibly at the end of 1911 or 1912.

Just I haven't found any more facts of the monoplane built.



Cheers

Aquilius